Climate change protesters wasting their time?

[editor]

It is something we've been looking forward to all year. Especially with the shit weather in england at the moment.

Can I get to Majorca using a train?

I don't think the protesters are demanding the end of all air travel everywhere but rather they're calling for a halt to the seemingly endless growth of the air industry.

I've got no problem with people taking occasional long haul flights or enjoying a holiday in Spain or whatever, but it seems reasonable to ask people to consider the environmental impact of weekend air jaunts to Prague or Scotland and to ask whether we really should be flying cucumbers (or whatever) across the world.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

Looking at that site, if you left London at three in the afternoon, you'd get to Barcelona a little before seven the next morning, not sure if you can take a ferry direct from there to Majorca, but that's a day of the holiday gone already at either end.

You're talking £103 at the very least for a "tourist class" return.

Edit: sorry, that's just the cost of the Paris-Barcelona train. You're also looking at at least £59 London-Paris.

So a bargain, basically

v expensive I agree - i wouldn't choose to get to majorca in this way - I'd probably go to the spanish coast instead.

 

[HAL9000]

What the climate camp was attempting to accomplish was:

1-Draw attention to the fact that airline travel is the fastest growing source of CO2 in the atmosphere & so will make global warming worse
2- Draw attention to the fact that Heathrow is the largest single source of CO2 in the country already.
3- Draw attention to the fact that proposed the 3rd runway at Heathrow is a bad idea.

Perhaps most people think that holidays abroad & business meetings are more important than a stable ecosystem. Personally I am glad that some the some people are prioritize the environment. All the glib techno-fixes on this thread are hog wash: there is no technology in sight which we can substitute for aviation fuel. The aviation industry needs to be downsized if we want to keep carbon emissions from what scientists say are dangerous levels.

In many companies, employees are requested to fly as part of their job. The company I work for, the furthest destination is about 3 hours flying time. So you can quickly see that its far from practical to use alternatives. Aviation technology is the answer. In one company I worked for, I had to fly to San Francisco to perform on site testing. (video conferencing is not practical)
At my place of work, there's nothing to stop people from using an alternative transport to flying but,

• You would have to use your own time, considering the distance involved. Holiday allocation would have to be used for travelling.
• Travelling time in many companies is not paid. Its very uncommon to find a company that will pay for travelling time.

You should also consider past history, look at how America set the agenda for clean air in the 70's with tail pipe legislation. It forced car manufactures to make cleaner cars and they took the following steps

• Switch to unleaded petrol
• Introduction of engine management systems
• Catalytic converters

current European car emission standards are based on CARB (California Air Resources Board) standards.

Climate change protesters said, "science was on their side" (as reported by the media) . Engineering is the appliance of science, so I see aviation engineering as the way forward.
Now if you could reduce air travel that would be great, but as a nation we refuse to give up cars, so the probability of sacrificing the package holiday is....................

 

[Fruitloop]

Isn't the '6 days anywhere hot and sunny' holiday a creation of the airline industry anyway? I mean there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it, but then there's equally nothing wrong with saying that if that's gonna be the default holiday for everyone (along with two and three day-ers in foreign capitals) and at the same time more and more people want to do it more and more frequently then there's gonna come a point when it's just ridiculously unsustainable.

It seems to be terribly unfashionable to tell anyone they can't have anything no matter what the constraining factors are, but sooner or later choices are gonna have to be made or we're fucked. Seriously.

 

[Fruitloop]

In terms of technological advances, well if they happen then that's fantastic, and if technologies can be employed that produce a fraction of the emissions that air travel currently does (vacuum-trains, anyone? ) then that's ace, we can all criss-cross the globe more or less constantly. But I think the sensible course of action would be to behave in a way that seems to be sustainable given the current tech, and then increase that as the efficiency gains allow. Just carrying on doing whatever the hell we like and hoping that some unspecified point in the future technology is going to come along and bail us out is madness.

 

[HAL9000]

But Fruitloop, what happens if you work for one of the many companies that like to fly people to different places, so that employees can

• Test new systems (what I do for a living)
• Have meetings (perhaps not necessary)
• Meet customers
• Investigate problems
• etc

 

[In Bloom]

I've got no problem with people taking occasional long haul flights or enjoying a holiday in Spain or whatever, but it seems reasonable to ask people to consider the environmental impact of weekend air jaunts to Prague or Scotland and to ask whether we really should be flying cucumbers (or whatever) across the world.

Fine, but the thing with food production is that the vast majority of people have absolutely no control over it. What do you want people to do? Write to food companies asking them to reconsider their environmentally unsustainable practices?

Unsustainable food production isn't going to go away without massive social change at every level and that's not going to happen because somebody superglues themselves bollocko to lastminute.com's office door.

 

[mk12]

Looking at that site, if you left London at three in the afternoon, you'd get to Barcelona a little before seven the next morning, not sure if you can take a ferry direct from there to Majorca, but that's a day of the holiday gone already at either end.

You're talking £103 at the very least for a "tourist class" return.

Edit: sorry, that's just the cost of the Paris-Barcelona train. You're also looking at at least £59 London-Paris.

So a bargain, basically

cheers. i'll let you know how it goes.

 

[editor]

Fine, but the thing with food production is that the vast majority of people have absolutely no control over it. What do you want people to do? Write to food companies asking them to reconsider their environmentally unsustainable practices?

Yeah, you're right. Best to pack up all those silly demos and protests that drag the issue of climate change and unsustainable air growth to the very top of the news agenda and do absolutely nothing at all instead, eh?

 

[In Bloom]

Yeah, you're right. Best to pack up all those silly demos and protests that drag the issue of climate change and unsustainable air growth to the very top of the news agenda and do absolutely nothing at all instead, eh?

What effective action can anybody take against climate change? Action for the sake of action is far worse than doing nothing.

In any case, just because you don't like the consequences of what I'm saying, it doesn't make me wrong.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Action for the sake of action is far worse than doing nothing.

In what way?

 

[rich!]

What effective action can anybody take against climate change?

Well, how about a bunch of people who think it's worth taking some action get together and discuss what actions might be effective, whilst in the meantime demonstrating what low-climate-impact operations look like and raising a bit of publicity for the issue?

Or perhaps they should just wait until a magic fish gives them the solution?

*goes back to pondering decontamination and decommissioning*

 

[In Bloom]

In what way?

Because it's a waste of time and energy that could be better spent elsewhere, because people find it off-putting, because it makes you look mental, because it causes burn out, but mostly because I can't be arsed doing things I don't want to do for no good reason.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

So if they do things that might disillusion them, they might end up doing nothing?

 

[rich!]

Because it's a waste of time and energy that could be better spent elsewhere

Like? Do you have any positive ideas? Really?

 

[HAL9000]

Yeah, you're right. Best to pack up all those silly demos and protests that drag the issue of climate change and unsustainable air growth to the very top of the news agenda and do absolutely nothing at all instead, eh?

Having a protest with a realistic aim that could be achieved is far better than an ideal solution with no chance of success.

As a nation we refuse to give up cars. Its seems extremely unlikely that a protest could reduce air travel.

Better targets:-

• Corporations use of air travel
• Aviation technology

Going off topic, stop the war protest got lots of publicity. But the effect was..................

 

[In Bloom]

Like? Do you have any positive ideas? Really?

Yawn.

I'm not going to do this thing again, it got boring after somewhere in the middle of the third time somebody tried it. If you want to know the kind of things I support, read my posts.

 

[In Bloom]

So if they do things that might disillusion them, they might end up doing nothing?

Could you say that again, only coherent?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

No, once is more than enough for those who don't want to know.

 

[rich!]

Yawn.

I'm not going to do this thing again, it got boring after somewhere in the middle of the third time somebody tried it. If you want to know the kind of things I support, read my posts.

I do. That's why I asked the question.

 

[In Bloom]

No, once is more than enough for those who don't want to know.

Whatever happened to the writer having a duty to make himself coherent enough that readers can understand him easily?

 

[mauvais]

Oh fuck me this is depressing. I can't be bothered to go outside ever again for fear I might actually have a positive effect on something and Jesus Christ if that happened then there might be some mass outbreak of optimism and of course there'll have to be an equal and opposite reaction because that's exactly how science works and alright I don't really understand it but I suppose it probably means the sky will fall on me and fucking hell there's nothing worse than that so I think I'll just stay indoors and slowly gas myself which when you think about it is a lot safer than meddling with the sky. Mmmmeuggghhhh.

 

[In Bloom]

I'd recomend staying off the crack for a while, that might help.

 

[mauvais]

I'm not staying on or off the crack in case I accidentally change the world. Pass me Schroedinger's crack pipe, if you please.

 

[In Bloom]

I would, but I can't seem to determine its location.

 

[rich!]

Yawn.

I'm not going to do this thing again, it got boring after somewhere in the middle of the third time somebody tried it. If you want to know the kind of things I support, read my posts.

Your posts, which make up typically more than 10% of the posts on these threads, (and over 20% on some!) seem to be mostly unhelpful "you're doing the wrong thing and I know better".

Perhaps rather than spending so much time posting negative comments, you could spend a little time putting together suggestions as to how these problems could be tackled better?

 

[editor]

Your posts, which make up typically more than 10% of the posts on these threads, (and over 20% on some!) seem to be mostly unhelpful "you're doing the wrong thing and I know better".

That's about the gist of it. He only comes to sneer while offering nothing constructive.

 

[smokedout]

That's about the gist of it. He only comes to sneer while offering nothing constructive.

yes but hes very young, you should archive all his posts and we'll force him to read them again when he's 35

youre all wrong and its soooo UNFAIR

 

[rich!]

That's about the gist of it. He only comes to sneer while offering nothing constructive.

Although, having just checked "Threads started by" he does appear to be active in a particular strand of low-impact activism.

Why other forms offend him so, as opposed to offering useful tools and techniques to be used in his own work, is a moot point.

 

[fredfelt]

But Fruitloop, what happens if you work for one of the many companies that like to fly people to different places, so that employees can

• Test new systems (what I do for a living)
• Have meetings (perhaps not necessary)
• Meet customers
• Investigate problems
• etc

Fine, let them do that. Just reduce trips to what is absolutley necessary by making flying less accessible.

Flying is just one option when managing business.

• You could do more testing remotely (probably)
• You could take fewer trips and stay over there longer (probably)
• Possibly organise your business to take advantage of more local contacts
• Make more use of local labour. Training customers to do the stuff etc
• The systems you create need to reflect the TRUE cost of production, so therefore include the envoinmental cost of the flight which will be paid for by the people who buy it

To cover another topic. Extra taxes on fuel, yes good but fuel costs are not a major proportion of the cost of your ticket and will only marginally increase cost of ticket.

I understand a major limiting factor in flights in this country is availability of slots. It seems crazy to be building more runways at this time of chrisis.