client disputing invoice amount for freelance work - advice needed!

[newbie]

Assume you do (own the source files) until proven otherwise, but if he's got copies then you'll need to enforce your ownership claim, which is probably not worth thinking about. If he hasn't already got copies it's in your interests to make sure he doesn't get them except by grovelling

he does sound like he's going to be painfully hard work, but I think unless you've formally withdrawn it your invoice still stands and you can use it as the basis for arbitration or the small claims court, so it's really up to him to make you an offer. You've shown willingness to compromise as an act of goodwill, but he has to realise that he is going to have to pay for your work, and should sort it out asap. Personally, I wouldn't offer any credit either, once the final figure is agreed payment should be immediate.

Keep copies of everything, make notes of phone calls etc.

 

[jonnyd1978]

I've just suggested he make us an offer and that if we cannot reach an acceptable arrangement we'll terminate our working relationship and he'll have to arrange for the site to be managed and hosted elsewhere.

Might be worth mentioning to him that if you take his site down he'll have to pay again for it to be rebuilt by someone else and also for them to host it. And they would charge him way more than what he owes you! (And also take him to small claims court for your money.)

 

[ViolentPanda]

Quick update - I've responded, acknowledging joint responsibility for not getting all costs signed off in advance, providing an even more detailed breakdown of how long the work took, a quote from the old company that used to host the site for the same work (£4000+) and he has still come back with:



I've just suggested he make us an offer and that if we cannot reach an acceptable arrangement we'll terminate our working relationship and he'll have to arrange for the site to be managed and hosted elsewhere.

At this stage I'm wondering if I own the source files for this project now, as they were handed over to me by the previous company and there's no contract in place or other documentation suggesting the client has any ownership/copywrite on the source files and assets that are all on my server and been modified by me and my colleage?

What your (soon to be former) client "feels" about the charges are immaterial if your prices are in line with industry norms, especially as (given no complaint from the client) he appears to have now accepted the amount of time you have spent on him.
He appears to be hoping you'll roll over and write off what he owes you, which makes one wonder just how many times he's tried a similar strategy before.

 

[newbie]

What your (soon to be former) client "feels" about the charges are immaterial if your prices are in line with industry norms, especially as (given no complaint from the client) he appears to have now accepted the amount of time you have spent on him.
He appears to be hoping you'll roll over and write off what he owes you, which makes one wonder just how many times he's tried a similar strategy before.

yeah, which is why seriously undercutting other people offering similar quality of service is bad news. It's not only that driving down fees is bad for everyone, but it also attracts the sort of client that no-one else wants. The sort that gets a 4 grand job done for twelve hundred quid and gets months and months of credit on it, and still quibbles.

 

[electroplated]

What your (soon to be former) client "feels" about the charges are immaterial if your prices are in line with industry norms, especially as (given no complaint from the client) he appears to have now accepted the amount of time you have spent on him.
He appears to be hoping you'll roll over and write off what he owes you, which makes one wonder just how many times he's tried a similar strategy before.

Indeed, I imagine that's exactly what he's hoping, but me and my colleague are definitely not going to let him walk all over us. We own the server with all the files and database on, he has no access to it or any copies of the files. If necessary I'll threaten to take the site down.

yeah, which is why seriously undercutting other people offering similar quality of service is bad news. It's not only that driving down fees is bad for everyone, but it also attracts the sort of client that no-one else wants. The sort that gets a 4 grand job done for twelve hundred quid and gets months and months of credit on it, and still quibbles.

It was a cheap quote, but not because we were trying to undercut anyone, just because I knew he was a nightmare when it came to money so we charged him for 4 days @ £300/day, which isn't a bad rate and not really undercutting other freelance developers that much (obviously their rates can be much much higher but what I'm saying is we were trying to charge a sensible amount considering the type of job)

 

[berniedicters]

The first question is - "is there any goodwill left between you and the client?".

If there is, then you are going to be far better off dealing with him on a goodwill basis than going for it legally, and so on.

I occasionally fucked up like this: failing to be "businesslike" about costs upfront, taking ages to invoice, and so on, and it does make it a lot harder to then suddenly be businesslike when the client's got used to you bumbling along kinda doing a bit of work here and there and not asking them for money!

You've got a bit of an uphill road ahead of you re-establishing your businesslike credentials, but you need to do it if you're going to carry on in that game. So try and get him onside. Accept that you make have to take a bit of a hit on your invoicing.

Assuming that he's not just out to rip you off, and that there's any future in this business relationship, this is what I'd do:

1. Agree with him an amount for the work you've done and submit an invoice.
2. Agree with him that, from now on, you'll quote and specify all work in advance, and invoice each job regularly or at least consolidate small jobs on a monthly basis.
3. Whenever he asks for a job, co-operatively (not obstructively) explain that you'll need to take a short while to take a look at it and see what it entails. Then do that, and send him a written (or, if you must, an emailed) quote. Be sure to add a contingency factor of 10-20% on to cover your "risk" - ie, the risk that the job has unforeseen complications. If you feel the situation warrants it, also bulk the job up a little to reclaim any losses you've made on the invoice you're waiting on at the moment.
4. Invoice promptly. No, really, do. It sounds counter-intuitive, but actually people like to know how much they owe, and it puts you in a much better position if you're going to argue, because the issues are fresh in everyone's minds.
5. Chase for prompt payment. It looks good. With some of my more recalcitrant customers, I started adding on 2.5% then offering a "2.5% prompt payment discount" if they stumped up within 14 days of the invoice date. With about half of them, it worked. If you don't want to do it, bribe a girlfriend or associate to do it for you.

ETA: I've read the rest of the thread more carefully now, and it does sound to me like you have gone to quite a lot of trouble to address the first point I made above, but it doesn't sound like he is being reasonable.

What would it take to restore the site back to the condition it was in before you did the work that is currently in dispute? Because I think you're probably getting close to the point where you may want to do that. Save embarrassing him for when it is clear that nothing is going to be forthcoming, but as an initial shot across his bows, taking the site back to as-original condition and saying "right. NOW, to make said updates to system...£x" might be the way to go. It's starting to eat into any goodwill, but if he's being as directly unwilling to pay the going rate as he sounds, maybe that's gone already.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Out of interest, what did "technical upkeep" comprise of?

 

[electroplated]

good advice agnesdavies

Out of interest, what did "technical upkeep" comprise of?

adding new functionality to the site, fixing pre-existing bugs, updating the cms system to provide extra site metrics and other stats, adding/removing affiliates and affiliate programs to the system, hosting the site and keeping and eye on the servers, answering clients technical questions and so on... lots of little things...

UPDATE: The good news is that after many polite emails to him I eventually didn't get a reply for about 9 days so I sent him a short note saying he had 30 days to pay the bill in full or I'd suspend the site hosting and suddenly he's falling over himself to pay the bill IN FULL with no argument!

Phew

 

[newbie]

good news

and, as a consequence, you're now on a proper business arrangement where you've probed each other a little and both come to the conclusion it's worth carrying on, on your terms.

 

[zenie]

UPDATE: The good news is that after many polite emails to him I eventually didn't get a reply for about 9 days so I sent him a short note saying he had 30 days to pay the bill in full or I'd suspend the site hosting and suddenly he's falling over himself to pay the bill IN FULL with no argument!

funny that ey?

Good news!