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Class War's Lisa McKenzie on Radio 4 tomorrow (11/3)

Rah rah rah......

You've waded into this thread insulting CW and not bothering to make the effort to do any level of homework before casting your ill-informed opinions on us.

If you think the mass media will show Lisa up to be a joke you clearly haven't got your finger on the pulse.

Read this...... http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/21/estate-working-class-problem-st-anns-nottingham

The estate we’re in: how working class people became the ‘problem’
My study of St Ann’s in Nottingham where I lived for many years shows how pernicious the idea of the feckless poor has become. I will continue to fight against these stigmatising views
Lisa-McKenzie-on-St-Anns--012.jpg

Lisa McKenzie on St Ann's estate, Nottingham: 'the middle class were boring and the upper class were cruel - they hurt animals and sent their children away.' Photograph: David Sillitoe for the Guardian
I am the daughter, granddaughter, and great granddaughter of Nottinghamshire miners. My mother worked at the Pretty Polly hosiery factory her whole life and I followed her at the age of 16 after leaving school in 1984 during the miners strike. We were a striking family and, to be honest, apart from following in the footsteps of my mother and aunties I hadn’t thought much further about what life might have to offer me. We needed the income that I would bring in as the strike hit my family hard and devastated my community forever.

I left Sutton-In Ashfield, the mining town where I grew up in 1988, as many young people started to do. As the mines, the factories, and hope left – so did we. I moved into the St Ann’s estate in the inner city of Nottingham and I had my son when I was 19.

Returning to Nottingham last week to launch my book Getting By: Estates, Class and Culture in Austerity Britain, has been difficult. Although I have been happy to see my friends and family, returning as a local woman made good has been unsettling. Being held up as “beating the odds”, “done good”, or “escaped” does not make me happy. It only compounds what I know about the brutal stigmatisation, and the devaluing process of working class people.

Unfortunately, offhand and casual comments relating to class prejudice and snobbery are very common. Now “I have made it”, I am not supposed to react angrily to it, I am supposed to know my place, and be grateful for getting out. However, I am angry and so are other working-class people when we have to deal with and hear these simplistic and stigmatising views of our lives. I have written about how working class life is misunderstood, and reduced to simplistic one-dimensional narratives from both the prurient poverty porn, but also the middle class do-gooders. We are not expected to attempt to defend our choices, become angry, or resist. Getting By was written to tackle this type of prejudice, and stereotype, and to explain the complexity of working-class life, and life on council estates.

The Sutton-in-Ashfield estate I grew up in, a mining town a few miles from Nottingham city centre, was a tight-knit community where almost everyone on the estate worked and lived in close proximity. I didn’t know that we were no good; I didn’t know that living on a council estate devalued you as a person. I understood my position in society as working class but I thought that was the best class to be. The middle class were boring, and the upper class were cruel – they hurt animals and sent their children away. This is how I thought about my family and my community during the 1970s. I was really thankful to be a working-class child.

During the late 1980s I felt very differently – almost ashamed of who we were. We were ridiculed, we were old-fashioned, poor, and didn’t know what was happening in the cool world of the “yuppie” and “loadsamoney” – a catchphrase made up by a middle-class comedian about working class people made good. I managed to get a council flat in St Ann’s because I had a baby and was homeless. Around the same time, John Major decided that young, working-class mothers were having babies purposefully to get a council house – this didn’t make me feel any better.

After my mother’s death in 1999, I knew that I wanted to do more with my life, perhaps be able to work in my community and give something back. Like many working-class women my community was important to me. I knew the difficulties of getting somewhere to live, negotiating the housing system, the benefits system, and the prejudices you can face. Especially from sometimes well-meaning authority figures working in these structures who can hold deep prejudices about working-class women. I remember meeting housing officers when my son was a baby and I needed somewhere to live and being told I should have thought about that before having sex. A midwife asking me what I had ready for the baby seeing as he didn’t have a father.

Eventually, aged 30, I enrolled on an Access to Social Work course. It was free because I wasn’t earning much money (now it would be £3,000). After a few months, I realised that I loved the learning. Instead of sitting at the back of the classroom messing about, which I had done at school, I was on the front row putting my hand up every five minutes. I went to the University of Nottingham because of a book I had found in the library: Poverty: The Forgotten Englishman, by Ken Coates and Bill Silburn – a community study carried out by the University of Nottingham’s adult education department with students in the mid 1960s. I didn’t know you could go to university to study the place where you lived, especially the places where I lived. To cut a long story short, exactly 10 years later, after an undergraduate degree, a master’s degree, and a doctoral thesis, I had told the story of working class families in St Ann’s from a working-class perspective and in our own words.

Getting By is the outcome of eight years’ ethnographic study, based on both theory and practice. Working-class people, and the communities where they live have been devalued to such an extent that they are known simply as “problematic” and in need of making better. It is the deficit model that working class people have something wrong with them, which needs putting right by intervention, by carrots and sticks. They are misrepresented and devalued. This is damaging and painful at best, and dangerous and vicious at worst.

I have seen, experienced and written about how thought becomes action. How the Thatcher government’s rhetoric of “underclass” and “the enemy within” became an attack on working-class communities, despising them, destroying families and identities. New Labour did little better with its social exclusion model, where it took the concept of social justice from France that tried to explain how groups of poorer, working-class people were becoming excluded from society. New Labour subverted it into something about how poorer families were excluding themselves with their “wrongness”, their bad culture and bad practices. This led to almost 13 years of top-down middle-class philanthropic social work culture.

The consequence was an open door for the Centre for Social Justice thinktank and my nemesis, its founder and now work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan-Smith, to walk through and justify cruel austerity measures that are devastating and hurting poorer families. I see the Tories laughing as they argue in Westminster that “the free ride” is over for the “shirkers”. I am now a 46-year-old working class woman with a PhD. Although I have lived in council housing for all of my life and I have relied upon welfare benefits at many points in my life, and probably will again, I have never had a free ride.

Continued here --> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/21/estate-working-class-problem-st-anns-nottingham
 
You've waded into this thread insulting CW and not bothering to make the effort to do any level of homework before casting your ill-informed opinions on us.

If you think the mass media will show Lisa up to be a joke you clearly haven't got your finger on the pulse.

Read this...... http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/21/estate-working-class-problem-st-anns-nottingham

The estate we’re in: how working class people became the ‘problem’
My study of St Ann’s in Nottingham where I lived for many years shows how pernicious the idea of the feckless poor has become. I will continue to fight against these stigmatising views
Lisa-McKenzie-on-St-Anns--012.jpg

Lisa McKenzie on St Ann's estate, Nottingham: 'the middle class were boring and the upper class were cruel - they hurt animals and sent their children away.' Photograph: David Sillitoe for the Guardian
I am the daughter, granddaughter, and great granddaughter of Nottinghamshire miners. My mother worked at the Pretty Polly hosiery factory her whole life and I followed her at the age of 16 after leaving school in 1984 during the miners strike. We were a striking family and, to be honest, apart from following in the footsteps of my mother and aunties I hadn’t thought much further about what life might have to offer me. We needed the income that I would bring in as the strike hit my family hard and devastated my community forever.

I left Sutton-In Ashfield, the mining town where I grew up in 1988, as many young people started to do. As the mines, the factories, and hope left – so did we. I moved into the St Ann’s estate in the inner city of Nottingham and I had my son when I was 19.

Returning to Nottingham last week to launch my book Getting By: Estates, Class and Culture in Austerity Britain, has been difficult. Although I have been happy to see my friends and family, returning as a local woman made good has been unsettling. Being held up as “beating the odds”, “done good”, or “escaped” does not make me happy. It only compounds what I know about the brutal stigmatisation, and the devaluing process of working class people.

Unfortunately, offhand and casual comments relating to class prejudice and snobbery are very common. Now “I have made it”, I am not supposed to react angrily to it, I am supposed to know my place, and be grateful for getting out. However, I am angry and so are other working-class people when we have to deal with and hear these simplistic and stigmatising views of our lives. I have written about how working class life is misunderstood, and reduced to simplistic one-dimensional narratives from both the prurient poverty porn, but also the middle class do-gooders. We are not expected to attempt to defend our choices, become angry, or resist. Getting By was written to tackle this type of prejudice, and stereotype, and to explain the complexity of working-class life, and life on council estates.

The Sutton-in-Ashfield estate I grew up in, a mining town a few miles from Nottingham city centre, was a tight-knit community where almost everyone on the estate worked and lived in close proximity. I didn’t know that we were no good; I didn’t know that living on a council estate devalued you as a person. I understood my position in society as working class but I thought that was the best class to be. The middle class were boring, and the upper class were cruel – they hurt animals and sent their children away. This is how I thought about my family and my community during the 1970s. I was really thankful to be a working-class child.

During the late 1980s I felt very differently – almost ashamed of who we were. We were ridiculed, we were old-fashioned, poor, and didn’t know what was happening in the cool world of the “yuppie” and “loadsamoney” – a catchphrase made up by a middle-class comedian about working class people made good. I managed to get a council flat in St Ann’s because I had a baby and was homeless. Around the same time, John Major decided that young, working-class mothers were having babies purposefully to get a council house – this didn’t make me feel any better.

After my mother’s death in 1999, I knew that I wanted to do more with my life, perhaps be able to work in my community and give something back. Like many working-class women my community was important to me. I knew the difficulties of getting somewhere to live, negotiating the housing system, the benefits system, and the prejudices you can face. Especially from sometimes well-meaning authority figures working in these structures who can hold deep prejudices about working-class women. I remember meeting housing officers when my son was a baby and I needed somewhere to live and being told I should have thought about that before having sex. A midwife asking me what I had ready for the baby seeing as he didn’t have a father.

Eventually, aged 30, I enrolled on an Access to Social Work course. It was free because I wasn’t earning much money (now it would be £3,000). After a few months, I realised that I loved the learning. Instead of sitting at the back of the classroom messing about, which I had done at school, I was on the front row putting my hand up every five minutes. I went to the University of Nottingham because of a book I had found in the library: Poverty: The Forgotten Englishman, by Ken Coates and Bill Silburn – a community study carried out by the University of Nottingham’s adult education department with students in the mid 1960s. I didn’t know you could go to university to study the place where you lived, especially the places where I lived. To cut a long story short, exactly 10 years later, after an undergraduate degree, a master’s degree, and a doctoral thesis, I had told the story of working class families in St Ann’s from a working-class perspective and in our own words.

Getting By is the outcome of eight years’ ethnographic study, based on both theory and practice. Working-class people, and the communities where they live have been devalued to such an extent that they are known simply as “problematic” and in need of making better. It is the deficit model that working class people have something wrong with them, which needs putting right by intervention, by carrots and sticks. They are misrepresented and devalued. This is damaging and painful at best, and dangerous and vicious at worst.

I have seen, experienced and written about how thought becomes action. How the Thatcher government’s rhetoric of “underclass” and “the enemy within” became an attack on working-class communities, despising them, destroying families and identities. New Labour did little better with its social exclusion model, where it took the concept of social justice from France that tried to explain how groups of poorer, working-class people were becoming excluded from society. New Labour subverted it into something about how poorer families were excluding themselves with their “wrongness”, their bad culture and bad practices. This led to almost 13 years of top-down middle-class philanthropic social work culture.

The consequence was an open door for the Centre for Social Justice thinktank and my nemesis, its founder and now work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan-Smith, to walk through and justify cruel austerity measures that are devastating and hurting poorer families. I see the Tories laughing as they argue in Westminster that “the free ride” is over for the “shirkers”. I am now a 46-year-old working class woman with a PhD. Although I have lived in council housing for all of my life and I have relied upon welfare benefits at many points in my life, and probably will again, I have never had a free ride.

Continued here --> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/21/estate-working-class-problem-st-anns-nottingham

I already posted that you muppet. And I respect her research. But they're not gonna talk about her research are they?
 
How is that a crass comment?

Just take it back mate, it was a stupid thing to say. From one academic to another: don't say stuff like that, you make us all look like cunts.
it's a crass comment as you have said above you have no knowledge of her. i pointed you in the direction of further information about her but you do not appear to have used that to find out more about her, or about her research. btw i'm not an academic.
 
I don't really think it's that confusing - the CW electoral campaign is using the electoral process to take the piss out of the establishment and the electoral/parliamentary system itself. But also getting across some more serious issues about working class impoverishment and disenfranchisement. And having a laugh doing it.

Nice one Fozzie :thumbs:
 
Well so far (edit - AFAIK) by calling lots of people wankers and coming out with inflammatory policies like doubling the dole, 50% mansion tax, abolishing the royal family etc...

Hence you have to forgive people for being confused when they implore them to take them seriously.
 
I come from pretty much the same kind of background and have never been to university (can't afford it). Why is it important that she's an academic?
 
it's a crass comment as you have said above you have no knowledge of her. i pointed you in the direction of further information about her but you do not appear to have used that to find out more about her, or about her research. btw i'm not an academic.

Apologies, I'd got it in my head that you were, I think because you're in UCU if memory serves?

I didn't make reference to her being a joke or stunt candidate (btw still waiting to hear what kind of candidate she will be) based on any knowledge of her, I made it based purely on the poster and on Class War. I'm happy to be corrected but there does seem to be some confusion about whether Class War are standing as joke candidates or not.

In any case, you said:

lisa's not a joke or a stunt candidate: if you bother to look into her you'll see she's a research fellow at the lse.

That does look a lot like you saying she can't be a joke or a stunt candidate because she's an academic. Which would be a fucking shocking thing to say. Obviously not something we'd expect to hear from you so if that's not what you meant, I believe you. But it does read like that, doesn't it?
 
I already posted that you muppet. And I respect her research. But they're not gonna talk about her research are they?

What do you know about what she's going to say tonight? The sheer arrogance of you is unbelievable. "How dare you run without informing the TUSC" "How dare you tell us your plans in full" "What a joke Lisa is, what a mockery she makes of the working class" "I know what will happen on the radio tonight, you fools".

You're a wanker mate.
 
i thought we had moved on to talking about her being a serious candidate, in which case her research is imo very relevant

Why? There have been plenty of Labour MP's in the last 50 years that have done their PhD's etc on working class communities.
 
I already posted that you muppet. And I respect her research. But they're not gonna talk about her research are they?

Are you talking about her being a "joke" candidate, as in the whole campaign is meant to be satire, as opposed to her herself being a "joke"
 
What do you know about what she's going to say tonight? The sheer arrogance of you is unbelievable. "How dare you run without informing the TUSC" "How dare you tell us your plans in full" "What a joke Lisa is, what a mockery she makes of the working class" "I know what will happen on the radio tonight, you fools".

You're a wanker mate.

Why don't you quote things I've actually said?

I haven't got a clue what she'll say tonight. I know what the interviewer is gonna ask her though. We all know that don't we?

I have asked you quite a few questions which I'm genuinely interested in the answers to but you don't seem to want to engage. I'll look on the other thread and see if that helps. You rude cunt.
 
Apologies, I'd got it in my head that you were, I think because you're in UCU if memory serves?

I didn't make reference to her being a joke or stunt candidate (btw still waiting to hear what kind of candidate she will be) based on any knowledge of her, I made it based purely on the poster and on Class War. I'm happy to be corrected but there does seem to be some confusion about whether Class War are standing as joke candidates or not.

In any case, you said:



That does look a lot like you saying she can't be a joke or a stunt candidate because she's an academic. Which would be a fucking shocking thing to say. Obviously not something we'd expect to hear from you so if that's not what you meant, I believe you. But it does read like that, doesn't it?
no, i'm in unison :(

i am saying she is a solid candidate because the issues around which cw are particular vocal - things like housing, working class communities and gentrification - are things on which she has solid knowledge and experience. in addition, we have on these boards long made fun of ids because of his ignorance and stupidity, two things you cannot accuse lisa of.
 
I also think having a serious message wrt the working class whilst presenting yourself as the pantomime horse has the propensity to backfire. I say this with absolutely no axe to grind with CW beyond the confusion of anarchism and enterism.
 
Why don't you quote things I've actually said?

I haven't got a clue what she'll say tonight. I know what the interviewer is gonna ask her though. We all know that don't we?

I have asked you quite a few questions which I'm genuinely interested in the answers to but you don't seem to want to engage. I'll look on the other thread and see if that helps. You rude cunt.

Your level of arrogance leads my to suspect you very well to do.
 
no, i'm in unison :(

Unlucky :D


no, i'm in unison :(

i am saying she is a solid candidate because the issues around which cw are particular vocal - things like housing, working class communities and gentrification - are things on which she has solid knowledge and experience.

Fair point.


in addition, we have on these boards long made fun of ids because of his ignorance and stupidity, two things you cannot accuse lisa of.

But you used the fact she was an academic, which sounds pretty snobbish and in any case I can name you hundreds of ignorant stupid academics.
 
This is what I said originally - wasn't referring to her specifically but Class War in general.

Yeah you'll find that there's a cluster of users on in the political forums who'll ignore parts of what you post in order to follow you round and try and goad you into arguments. Just stick them on ignore ;)
 
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