class war and religion

[Luther Blissett]

Ehm....

Mohammed wasn't a Jew. AFAIK.

just saying, like.

now you know he was. see below

And burning the effigies of two apostate Jews too. What's all that about? Are Class War the new Sanhedrin? If they are, wouldn't it have been more appropriate to stone the effigies

people are so quick to accept modern propaganda, aren't they!

what I wrote about it functioning INSTEAD of politics is true

you might be right there

 

[The Black Hand]

now you know he was. see below

people are so quick to accept modern propaganda, aren't they!

you might be right there

Quite - i fear you could be right

 

[JonnyT]

now you know he was. see below

...eh?

 

[Luther Blissett]

...eh?

Wot ViolentPanda said. Read it.

 

[JonnyT]

I did.

but your post seemed to suggest that somehow ViolentPanda's post proved mine wrong - whereas my post was actually intended to correct that one, in that no source I've come across has identified Mohammed as Jewish.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I did.

but your post seemed to suggest that somehow ViolentPanda's post proved mine wrong - whereas my post was actually intended to correct that one, in that no source I've come across has identified Mohammed as Jewish.

I read in some tome or other that he was supposedly a member of a relict Jewish sect that had animist leanings. I'll try and dig up the reference, but it was 20-odd yrs ago that I read it, so I'll have to try and work out from my card index which books I had back then, and work from there.

 

[JonnyT]

would be much appreciated . the only sources I've found list him as a fairly generic Arab pagan in an area with some monotheists (Jews, Christians) prior to the whole Koran dealie - in particular haven't seen it mentioned in texts examining relations between Jews and Muslims, which one would assume would make at least some reference to it. not trying to contradict but am rather curious.

 

[durruti02]

pepole were asked to fetch there own efigys to burn there was jules pipe tony blair george bush ian blair adolf hitler the queen jesus and loads of others you lot are a bunch of cunts the event was a laugh if you dont like it dont come you certainly wont be missed! as for the gentrification stuff we are involved in it we helped out with the squated cafe spirits stuff ect and most of us live here! the fact is class war couldn't give a fuck at you snipeing at the side lines what ever we do you sad wankers critsise your too violent your not violent enough ect same old crap don't moan organize put up or shut up

calm down calm down! .. so jules was there .. good stuff

but though .. hcw have NOT have not been involved with anti gentrification/ anti council stuff for many years .. nor were they much involved with tonys cafe which was suprising as how local it was nor the gillet square demo on friday .. and i don't think you can accuse me of not doing stuff can you .. ok?

 

[bruise]

as an anarchist and an athiest i find this so fucking juvenile it makes me want to distance myself as much as possible from the continuing antics of class war which ive written about and here and debated at length at the other place. i just find it so fucking juvenile and really damaging

obviously on this thread you attracted a lot of hostility for CW members and supporters and hangers on - just wanted to say - you are the more sane one, it's just most people can't be bothered with CW. they've only ever been a joke.

i used to like their comic - good antidote to other worthy tomes on the left but would never take their ideas or 'organisation' seriously.

those of us who are trying to engage the working class with anarchist ideas

good luck.

 

[kyser_soze]

It's also worth remembering that smokedout thinks throwing frisbees is a middle class activity...

 

[TeeJay]

What are we meant to be throwing? Dustbin lids? Manhole covers?

 

[kyser_soze]

Not frisbees.

 

[JHE]

Spells & curses & magic stuff, I reckon. Smokey is into 'the occult'.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

I dunno, its a bit extreme to burn mohammed and Jesus in some ways, i'd try and stick to something strictly political - but then thats Class War's angle and the kind of thing they have always done. If they want to be the battering ram against political Islam, good luck and fair play. Rather them than me, but i'm happy to see anybody breaking these stupid boundaries around religion.

The criticisms of it not being a family event etc - many of these are totally valid, but what are their sources? Nutters who revel in mystifying issues and controversy.*


*fuck d'you spell this?

I'd just like to say that i have come to a different conclusion, and my original post was - to my shame - based on the source of the criticisms, not the content.

I think the mohammed effigy was a mistake.

The bonfire is a good idea cos hackney doesn't do one, and burning various tossers gives it a good edge. But burning mohammed is a bit random politically and highly dangerous in general. Yes the muslim movement in this country is a load of shit and has loads of nutters - don't accerbate the problem! Why give them fuel? The way to beat religion for me is to tackle the real issues and make it irrelevant. I think the draw towards religion is the community it provides and the meaning it give unimaginiative* people in a boring, alienated worklife. Thats only part of the reasons behind it, fuck knows why thousands of americans and brits have joined evangelical churches out of free volition. Its best to work on what we DO know; the welfare state is breaking down, the govt is taking us to war etc etc bla bla bla.

What this represents is disgust with the (already disgusting) SWP become vehicle in its own right. And a horrible parody.

I'm quite glad urban disables editing after a while, cos its forced me into a show of humility rather than just deleting my post

*and over-imaginative ha ha

 

[smokedout]

Spells & curses & magic stuff, I reckon. Smokey is into 'the occult'.

you're a real twat arent you, when i have ever claimed to be into spells and curses or even that im into the occult

and even if i had, what of it, you seem unable to engage with the argument here and just resort to abuse based on what may or may not be (you dont know) my personal beliefs ... very clever and shows the pathetic level of argument you apply to your juvenile criticism of religion

back on topic, ive just seen the pics on the CWF site, as i guessed no kids appeared to be present, and given they were bigging it up as a replacement for the failure for hackney council to build a bonfire, well very little evidence of the local community attending

unless of course hackneys community is now made up of white twenty something childless hippies

which i guess around london fields it largely is these days

if the same stunt had been tried in parts of tower hamlets (or manningham park in bradford) then class war would very probably have had a race riot on their hands

so i say to class war

get your puerile divisive shit out of my fucking community, if you want to burn mohammed then do it in your mums back garden in surrey

we dont need this shit, come back when you are interested or capable of engaging this community in a positive and constructive way or just stay fucked off, you wont be missed if this is the best you got

how fucking dare you invade our space and pull something that could split the community in two at a time when things are fractious to say the least, take your fucking class tourism back to whatever public school hellhole you came from and leave us to define our own class struggle, which doesnt include needlessly offending and insulting our neighbours and creating even further barriers to class solidarity

 

[JHE]

you're a real twat arent you, when i have ever claimed to be into spells and curses or even that im into the occult

Why be so disingenuous? You admitted you were into 'the occult' quite recently (the evening of 29 Oct 06) - but you became very coy about it.

and even if i had, what of it, you seem unable to engage with the argument here and just resort to abuse based on what may or may not be (you dont know) my personal beliefs ... very clever and shows the pathetic level of argument you apply to your juvenile criticism of religion

Sorry, I lack a sophisticated critique of 'the occult'! But I reckon it's worth a laugh!

You get back to your fantasy-land in which Islam is repressed in Britain - and don't you worry your occult-addled head about bloody Islam's treatment of non-Muslims.

 

[rauscher]

Marxism and religion

What is the difference between Marxism and religion? Does history actually support Marx more than creationsm? How much real evidence is there for Darwinism? A few bones, carbon dating? How much research do you do to support your opinions?

I am intending to be provocative but if you don't have a serious answer and just want to be abusive please don't bore me and everyone else.

 

[Luther Blissett]

Why be so disingenuous? You admitted you were into 'the occult' quite recently (the evening of 29 Oct 06) - but you became very coy about it.



Sorry, I lack a sophisticated critique of 'the occult'! But I reckon it's worth a laugh!

You get back to your fantasy-land in which Islam is repressed in Britain - and don't you worry your occult-addled head about bloody Islam's treatment of non-Muslims.

what exactly are you having a go at smokedout for??

it was 'class war' that resorted to anti-black 'magic', not smokedout

 

[smokedout]

i said i was interested in it, so what

im not obsessed by it, like you seem to be about islam

 

[Taxamo Welf]

unless of course hackneys community is now made up of white twenty something childless hippies

which i guess around london fields it largely is these days
your fucking class tourism back to whatever public school hellhole you came from and leave us to define our own class struggle

back garden in surrey

In all ur years you've never met a class war member?

I don't think so...

In fact i think she doth protest too much...

 

[smokedout]

she?

who am i supposed to be now

 

[JHE]

it was 'class war' that resorted to anti-black 'magic', not smokedout

Last edited by Luther Blissett : 13-11-2006 at 10:45 PM.

You edited that from 'voodoo' to 'anti-black magic' three quarters of an hour after you posted. Did you decide 'voodoo' was a Ray Cyst slur?

Don't worry, you PC arse. It's halal to denigrate pagan nonsense.

But even you can't believe that Class War's burning of effigies was an attempt at voodoo of any sort, can you?

 

[Luther Blissett]

You edited that from 'voodoo' to 'anti-black magic' three quarters of an hour after you posted.

I did.

Did you decide 'voodoo' was a Ray Cyst slur?

I decided that 'anti-black' magic was better.

Don't worry, you PC arse. It's halal to denigrate pagan nonsense.

What's halal got to do with me, other than being similar to kosher?

But even you can't believe that Class War's burning of effigies was an attempt at voodoo of any sort, can you?

Why can't I believe that?

 

[JHE]

Fine, you believe any twaddle you like, mush - as long as it doesn't risk offending any Mohammedans, obviously.

 

[Luther Blissett]

Fine, you believe any twaddle you like, mush - as long as it doesn't risk offending any Mohammedans, obviously.

why do you think i should a) have a problem with other people's religious beliefs b) go out of my way to offend people of religious belief c) indulge in your right-wing christian slant on Islam or other of the world's religions/spiritual belief systems?

there are ways of criticising belief systems, and it does help to actually know something about them other than what you've read on trashy rightist websites

 

[118118]

I think its a bit weird how c/w keep saying stuff along the lines of "Muslims are cunts". I mean, its a bit similar to the anti-immigration people who end up talking about "the white working class".

Me, I dunno if burning effiges is offensive. But ffs, hating all religous people ios definetly.

 

[darren redparty]

far be it for me to intrude in this private circle jerk but when the fuck have class war ever said

c/w keep saying stuff along the lines of "Muslims are cunts". I mean, its a bit similar to the anti-immigration people who end up talking about "the white working class".

what we have said is Islam, like ALL religion, is shit.
if you can back up the "all muslims are cunts" quote ( or anything even remotely simular) then do so or shut the fuCk uP!

I dunno if burning effiges is offensive. But ffs, hating all religous people ios definetly

we have never made any such statement- what we have said is that we hate all organised religion- you can believe in what ever fairies or unicorns you want but don't try to claim that that fantasy gives you some moral right to determine the actions or beliefs of the restr of us

 

[TopCat]

you're a real twat arent you, when i have ever claimed to be into spells and curses or even that im into the occult

and even if i had, what of it, you seem unable to engage with the argument here and just resort to abuse based on what may or may not be (you dont know) my personal beliefs ... very clever and shows the pathetic level of argument you apply to your juvenile criticism of religion

back on topic, ive just seen the pics on the CWF site, as i guessed no kids appeared to be present, and given they were bigging it up as a replacement for the failure for hackney council to build a bonfire, well very little evidence of the local community attending

unless of course hackneys community is now made up of white twenty something childless hippies

which i guess around london fields it largely is these days

if the same stunt had been tried in parts of tower hamlets (or manningham park in bradford) then class war would very probably have had a race riot on their hands

so i say to class war

get your puerile divisive shit out of my fucking community, if you want to burn mohammed then do it in your mums back garden in surrey

we dont need this shit, come back when you are interested or capable of engaging this community in a positive and constructive way or just stay fucked off, you wont be missed if this is the best you got

how fucking dare you invade our space and pull something that could split the community in two at a time when things are fractious to say the least, take your fucking class tourism back to whatever public school hellhole you came from and leave us to define our own class struggle, which doesnt include needlessly offending and insulting our neighbours and creating even further barriers to class solidarity

I look forward to another do next November. Hopefully with a bigger bonfire, louder fireworks and another decent set of effigies.

I think we can safely leave the whiners to their whining.

 

[Luther Blissett]

what we have said is Islam, like ALL religion, is shit.
if you can back up the "all muslims are cunts" quote ( or anything even remotely simular) then do so or shut the fuCk uP!

You/CWF/LCW haven't said 'all religion is shit' and we can't find any historic or current criticism of all the monotheistic religions on your website.
in your piece 'islam' (CW90) you draw on right-wing christian smears of Islam worthy of Daniel Pipes, and other American 'anti-communists', and reprint them as though they were 'fact', and publish at a time when the right-wing press and BNP are also printing and distributing smears.

If we could go back in time to the 1930s to Cable Street, when anti-racists/anti-fascists were lining the streets and putting up barracades against Moseley's marching yobbos, you would have put out a statement denouncing yids and heebs and smearing 'dirty moses' whilst proudly announcing your 'judeophobia'!

we have never made any such statement- what we have said is that we hate all organised religion- you can believe in what ever fairies or unicorns you want but don't try to claim that that fantasy gives you some moral right to determine the actions or beliefs of the restr of us

You didn't say that at all. You published two pieces on Islam, burned a racist-effigy of Islam's Prophet, and jumped on a largely American Christian-right wing demonistation of Islam and Muslims.

 

[TopCat]

You/CWF/LCW haven't said 'all religion is shit' and we can't find any historic or current criticism of all the monotheistic religions on your website.
in your piece 'islam' (CW90) you draw on right-wing christian smears of Islam worthy of Daniel Pipes, and other American 'anti-communists', and reprint them as though they were 'fact', and publish at a time when the right-wing press and BNP are also printing and distributing smears.

If we could go back in time to the 1930s to Cable Street, when anti-racists/anti-fascists were lining the streets and putting up barracades against Moseley's marching yobbos, you would have put out a statement denouncing yids and heebs and smearing 'dirty moses' whilst proudly announcing your 'judeophobia'!

You didn't say that at all. You published two pieces on Islam, burned a racist-effigy of Islam's Prophet, and jumped on a largely American Christian-right wing demonistation of Islam and Muslims.

More sophistry from the demented Fabian Thomsett.