Class System

[clmk]

An interesting idea....So by your reckoning the best always rise to the top......er like Stalin,Like Hitler,Like Yeltsin?

Lol, like thatcher, thatcher the milk snatcher?
Clinton? Bush? Mussolini? Hussein?

 

[tbaldwin]

Keep up! I am not in the Class War Federation anymore!!

Dress the rest up how you want Brown nosing Twat, when you can actually get an answer out of New labourites or other social democrats as what socialism really is, you get an answer the same as yours, a 'level playing field', equal opportunity... Here's a clue, its bollocks.

Try looking for an anti system (anarchism) that removes the structures that create a system and the possibility that some can take power, and you'll have an easier job than trying to make capitalism fair (in short, its impossible).

Didnt the structures of Class war create a system that had you thrown out?

 

[big footed fred]

An interesting idea....So by your reckoning the best always rise to the top......er like Stalin,Like Hitler,Like Yeltsin?

Not always the best of people but always the stongest in whatever way that is right for them at the time.
Hitler may not have had physical power but he had the ability to control people in just the same way Blair has now.
Just proves my point that people are not and never will be equal.

 

[clmk]

Not always the best of people but always the stongest in whatever way that is right for them at the time.
Hitler may not have had physical power but he had the ability to control people in just the same way Blair has now.
Just proves my point that people are not and never will be equal.

The strongest do not rise to the top, no matter how strong, or controlling you are, if you're black, born in Hackney, go to a state school, you're not going to make it as prime minister....::

People aren't born equal in terms of what strengths they have but I see

Candidate A: who is born physically weak, and with moral principles, with every right to live just as well as
Candidate B: who is born physically strong, without moral principles and is a controlling little shit, if they do the same work.

Now even if say Candidate B does better work and faster, is more efficient, I wouldn't reward him more if he is working just as hard as Candidate A
Candidate A should not be punished for not being hardworking enough to have the foresight, intelligence, and resourcefulness to have been born by the right parents with the right genes.....
Whichever Candidate WORKS THE HARDEST AND PUTS IN THE MOST EFFORT AND HOURS deserves to be rewarded more and hence an inequality....

If it's a case of natural selection, to try to breed the super race, you'll fall flat on your face, because the best minds in history wern't born from super intelligent parents, with a family history of geniuses....

 

[clmk]

edit

 

[big footed fred]

The strongest do not rise to the top, no matter how strong, or controlling you are, if you're black, born in Hackney, go to a state school, you're not going to make it as prime minister....::

People aren't born equal in terms of what strengths they have but I see

Candidate A: who is born physically weak, and with moral principles, with every right to live just as well as
Candidate B: who is born physically strong, without moral principles and is a controlling little shit, if they do the same work.

Now even if say Candidate B does better work and faster, is more efficient, I wouldn't reward him more if he is working just as hard as Candidate A
Candidate A should not be punished for not being hardworking enough to have the foresight, intelligence, and resourcefulness to have been born by the right parents with the right genes.....
Whichever Candidate WORKS THE HARDEST AND PUTS IN THE MOST EFFORT AND HOURS deserves to be rewarded more and hence an inequality....

If it's a case of natural selection, to try to breed the super race, you'll fall flat on your face, because the best minds in history wern't born from super intelligent parents, with a family history of geniuses....

Our black man may well rise to the top of his given field if he chooses the field wisely.
He may well not have much chance to be PM at the moment so I would suggest that he work on something he can do. PM is not the best job for everyone but only for some.
As for the rest you just prove my point. Some can and some can't. The world is unfair and there is bugger all we can do about it so just do the best you can and try to be happy.

 

[clmk]

Our black man may well rise to the top of his given field if he chooses the field wisely.
He may well not have much chance to be PM at the moment so I would suggest that he work on something he can do. PM is not the best job for everyone but only for some.
As for the rest you just prove my point. Some can and some can't. The world is unfair and there is bugger all we can do about it so just do the best you can and try to be happy.

You're reasoning is lame....
It doesn't prove your point at all....and there's lots you can do about it.....just that it looks like, either none of these issues affect you....or you're just too lazy, irresponsible, uncaring, self-centred, to do anything about it........

 

[nino_savatte]

Our black man may well rise to the top of his given field if he chooses the field wisely.
He may well not have much chance to be PM at the moment so I would suggest that he work on something he can do. PM is not the best job for everyone but only for some.
As for the rest you just prove my point. Some can and some can't. The world is unfair and there is bugger all we can do about it so just do the best you can and try to be happy.

What I get from your post is "Know your place and stay there" and "Poor black man: stick to something you can do, like working on the buses".

I don't suppose you noticed the social mobility of the late 20th century - did you?

 

[big footed fred]

What I get from your post is "Know your place and stay there" and "Poor black man: stick to something you can do, like working on the buses".

I don't suppose you noticed the social mobility of the late 20th century - did you?

I had a good look in my post and can't find the words you used as my quote.
At no point did I say blacks (or maybe you want me to say niggers) should know their place.
Once again you spout bollocks with racist overtones to try to suggest I'm wrong.
What I am saying is that a man (or woman - good old maggie) can work their way to the top in any given field.
All they need to do is exploit the gifts they have. It is true that social conditions have an effect on who can reach any given position but the wise man would prove himself so good as to beat the problems placed in his way.

Woman PM - never. Maggie proved that you can beat the narrow thinking of others to rise to the top.
Your point about social mobility of the late 20th century again backs up what I am saying.
It allowed people that would have been stuck in lower classes to rise according to their ability creating a new class of hard headed businessmen who now take their well deserved place in the elite.

Don't know your place - get off your arse to reach a higher one.

 

[nino_savatte]

I had a good look in my post and can't find the words you used as my quote.
At no point did I say blacks (or maybe you want me to say niggers) should know their place.
Once again you spout bollocks with racist overtones to try to suggest I'm wrong.
What I am saying is that a man (or woman - good old maggie) can work their way to the top in any given field.
All they need to do is exploit the gifts they have. It is true that social conditions have an effect on who can reach any given position but the wise man would prove himself so good as to beat the problems placed in his way.

Woman PM - never. Maggie proved that you can beat the narrow thinking of others to rise to the top.
Your point about social mobility of the late 20th century again backs up what I am saying.
It allowed people that would have been stuck in lower classes to rise according to their ability creating a new class of hard headed businessmen who now take their well deserved place in the elite.

Don't know your place - get off your arse to reach a higher one.

I saw that one post and what I saw in your post was "know your place". In your first paragraph you betray agreat deal more about your intentions than you realise...and, no I didn't want you to say "nigger". My, the histrionics!

Once again you spout bollocks with racist overtones to try to suggest I'm wrong.

Wtf are you talking about? "Spout bollocks with racist overtones"? Perhaps you need to work on your discussion, analytic and language skills before you engage me...until then, don't bother.

E2A: you're the one who blames all the ills of the world on "Marxism". It seems to me that you have only one desire here on this forum: to spout ill-informed bollocks about ideologies you have only heard about. What was it you said about the Communist Manifesto? And what was it you said about Marxism being "the cause of death and destruction"...or words to that effect?

 

[big footed fred]

Wtf are you talking about? "Spout bollocks with racist overtones"? Perhaps you need to work on your discussion and language skills before you engage me...until then, don't bother.

What I get from your post is "Know your place and stay there" and "Poor black man: stick to something you can do, like working on the buses"..

Please show me a quote where I EVER mentioned 'Poor black man' staying in their place working on the buses
or anything like it.
That's the bollocks I mentioned. you seem to like to try to argue by adding words and then making an argument based on what you think I said.
If you are unable to argue your position with solid points then it's not worth bothering with you.
Show me evidence that the class system is wrong and that people with ability have no chance to rise to the top or shut up after you admit that I am right.
There are always those at the bottom of the pile. Some can't do and some can't be bothered to do. I don't argue that they should be left to die on the street but I do argue that there is nothing wrong with those who can do getting ahead and making a better life for themselves.
I started life by being born on a crappy street in Brinsworth. It was a real dump but now I run a business and mix with a wide range of people including the best families (business leaders, masons and so on).
Others from the same street are in prison for being scumbags.
We made of life what we did. Some were arseholes and ended up as criminals, some got off their arse and had a go.

Being born into crap is no reason to stay there.

 

[tbaldwin]

". It seems to me that you have only one desire here on this forum: to spout ill-informed bollocks about ideologies you have only heard about.

Nino.....What exactly do you mean by this? Fred has a different opinion from you....So therefore he must be ignorant? ......If only every one was as clever as you!!!!!

 

[nino_savatte]

Please show me a quote where I EVER mentioned 'Poor black man' staying in their place working on the buses
or anything like it.
That's the bollocks I mentioned. you seem to like to try to argue by adding words and then making an argument based on what you think I said.
If you are unable to argue your position with solid points then it's not worth bothering with you.
Show me evidence that the class system is wrong and that people with ability have no chance to rise to the top or shut up after you admit that I am right.
There are always those at the bottom of the pile. Some can't do and some can't be bothered to do. I don't argue that they should be left to die on the street but I do argue that there is nothing wrong with those who can do getting ahead and making a better life for themselves.
I started life by being born on a crappy street in Brinsworth. It was a real dump but now I run a business and mix with a wide range of people including the best families (business leaders, masons and so on).
Others from the same street are in prison for being scumbags.
We made of life what we did. Some were arseholes and ended up as criminals, some got off their arse and had a go.

Being born into crap is no reason to stay there.

You would dearly love to come out of this smelling of roses. Fuck, you don't even remember the words you typed either, so here's a reminder freddy boy:

He may well not have much chance to be PM at the moment so I would suggest that he work on something he can do.

Your post looks like a standard rant from a typical Tory, whose knowledge of other political movements and ideologies is gleaned from the pages of the Daily Telegraph.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino.....What exactly do you mean by this? Fred has a different opinion from you....So therefore he must be ignorant? ......If only every one was as clever as you!!!!!

So says baldo, the man who pretends to be left but who is in fact more right wing than Boris Johnson. And I see you've used the auld "If only every one was as clever as you" line again, which reveals more about the way your mind works than you would care to admit. You can take your back handed compliments and stick them where the sun doesn't shine.


Nice try with the projection, baldo but most everyone here knows you're nowt but a common or garden troll.

 

[big footed fred]

You would dearly love to come out of this smelling of roses. Fuck, you don't even remember the words you typed either, so here's a reminder freddy boy:

Your post looks like a standard rant from a typical Tory, whose knowledge of other political movements and ideologies is gleaned from he pages of the Daily Telegraph.

Posted AFTER the black man post and taken out of context.
I'm not a typical tory. I like to consider that the free NHS should be just that and have NO charges and I believe the welfare state should give support to those in need.
The lazy grabbing scumbags who can't be arsed to get a job have no right to get their dole money.
It's there as a safety net not free cash for the lazy.
Anyway must do some more work. Only made £550 today so far.
Not bad for a guy born in a shit council house in a shit area of Rotherham.
It's just a matter of hard graft and working out that all that lefty stuff about equal this, that and the other is a load of bollocks.
Just been speaking to a chinese lady I know who's sister has just started a business in Manchester. Her sis has come all he way from china and is risking her money to start a business in this country. Can you tell me she has no right to make a large pile of cash and have a good life ?

If you want a better life get off your arse and earn it.
Makes no odds if you are black, white, yellow or whatever. Hard work gives you the chance.

ps - I read the times

 

[ViolentPanda]

Please show me a quote where I EVER mentioned 'Poor black man' staying in their place working on the buses
or anything like it.

So what exactly does "Our black man may well rise to the top of his given field if he chooses the field wisely" if it doesn't mean "don't be too ambitious" (or, to use nino's words "know your place")?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nino.....What exactly do you mean by this? Fred has a different opinion from you....So therefore he must be ignorant? ......If only every one was as clever as you!!!!!

I suppose we have to thank fuck that not everyone is as "clever" as you though, or the whole fucking world would be doomed.

 

[big footed fred]

So what exactly does "Our black man may well rise to the top of his given field if he chooses the field wisely" if it doesn't mean "don't be too ambitious" (or, to use nino's words "know your place")?

I also said that there may be resrictions he has no control over.
This country may not yet be ready for a black pm yet but it wasn't for a woman PM when maggie proved them wrong.
Skin colour or gender does not restrict your ability to try to do the best you can.
We have the ability to choose the way we treat outselves and others.
Just do the best you can with what tools you have.

 

[nino_savatte]

Posted AFTER the black man post and taken out of context.
I'm not a typical tory. I like to consider that the free NHS should be just that and have NO charges and I believe the welfare state should give support to those in need.
The lazy grabbing scumbags who can't be arsed to get a job have no right to get their dole money.
It's there as a safety net not free cash for the lazy.
Anyway must do some more work. Only made £550 today so far.
Not bad for a guy born in a shit council house in a shit area of Rotherham.
It's just a matter of hard graft and working out that all that lefty stuff about equal this, that and the other is a load of bollocks.
Just been speaking to a chinese lady I know who's sister has just started a business in Manchester. Her sis has come all he way from china and is risking her money to start a business in this country. Can you tell me she has no right to make a large pile of cash and have a good life ?

If you want a better life get off your arse and earn it.
Makes no odds if you are black, white, yellow or whatever. Hard work gives you the chance.

ps - I read the times

Another screed. Your heroine, Thatcher - who you keep mentioning as if her name were some sort of holy incantation - may have been a woman but she did nothing to better the lot of womankind. There were no women in her cabinet and her attitude to her fellow women was little different to the male chauvinists of the time.

You place a great deal of faith in the "work hard, make lots of money" schtick. It doesn't sound that different to what I heard in the 80's when our communites were being smashed to bits by Thatcher and her henchmen.

 

[nino_savatte]

So what exactly does "Our black man may well rise to the top of his given field if he chooses the field wisely" if it doesn't mean "don't be too ambitious" (or, to use nino's words "know your place")?

It certainly sounded as though fred was adopting the Booker T Washington approach. Washington claimed that black people would be better off "working with their hands", than entertaining notions of getting an education or having ambitions beyond the cotton fields.

 

[The Black Hand]

Didnt the structures of Class war create a system that had you thrown out?

No. Instead they used an ad hoc motion which had no precendence within CW before, and banned me from discussing it internally on the private bulletin boards. A request for an emergency conference to sort it all out by Dave Douglass was turned down!! and some are leaving CW as a result. One notable one is the 'famous' miner from Doncaster who you should all know...

 

[big footed fred]

Another screed. Your heroine, Thatcher - who you keep mentioning as if her name were some sort of holy incantation - may have been a woman but she did nothing to better the lot of womankind. There were no women in her cabinet and her attitude to her fellow women was little different to the male chauvinists of the time.

You place a great deal of faith in the "work hard, make lots of money" schtick. It doesn't sound that different to what I heard in the 80's when our communites were being smashed to bits by Thatcher and her henchmen.

I live in an ex mining community where the unions had far too much power and bullied so many of the workers they were supposed to protect the interests of.
The commie union leaders were bent on taking power in the country and forming a communist government.
The unions needed smashing. Pity it was the workers who suffered most for the political intentions of the grabbing unions.
Taking Thatcher one was their last mistake.

 

[nino_savatte]

I live in an ex mining community where the unions had far too much power and bullied so many of the workers they were supposed to protect the interests of.
The commie union leaders were bent on taking power in the country and forming a communist government.
The unions needed smashing. Pity it was the workers who suffered most for the political intentions of the grabbing unions.
Taking Thatcher one was their last mistake.

Another mindless fucking screed. You're nowt but another cheap red baiter and commie basher with fuck all to offer beyond invective.

Even here, you show yourself up: "the unions needed smashing"...unlike ineffective British management which was completely free of blame -eh?

I can see you've never been in a position where your livelihoood is under threat because of some warped ideological desire to destroy working class communities because they are "full to bursting with nasty commies".

Do you see commies everywhere, fred? Were you around in the 1950's, or are you one of those who just calls anyone a commie if they don't share in your vision of a right wing utopia?

You should be writing for The Daily Mail, they need writers with some imagination.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I live in an ex mining community where the unions had far too much power and bullied so many of the workers they were supposed to protect the interests of.

And your living in a former mining community has imbued you with this knowledge, has it?
Nothing to do with your pre-existing prejudices then?

The commie union leaders were bent on taking power in the country and forming a communist government.

Any decent student of history can find many examples of the right not only plotting, but having the wherewithal to do this during the 1960s, 70s and 80s. Oddly enough though, your ilk choose to extrapolate Scargill's demagoguery as proving that he was "bent on taking power in the country" and always ignore the massive amount of data that shows the right as having been FAR MORE likely (and equipped) to have done that sort of thing.

The unions needed smashing. Pity it was the workers who suffered most for the political intentions of the grabbing unions.

So come on, tell me WHY the unions needed smashing, and none of your whimsical musings about "commies" and myths about the unions being a vanguard for a socialist coup, give me some hard fact, some incidence of the secret state having unearthed proof of this conspiracy you say the unions wer engaging in.
Npot that I expect you to take up my challenge, because you know as well as I that you're talking absolute shite.

Taking Thatcher one was their last mistake.

Don't be stupid, Thatcher was the tool that was used to do these things. The minds behind it were the same group of usual suspects from the establishment who'd chuntered on about smashing the unions for 20 yrs. Thatcher was merely stupid enough to listen to the far-right twats.

 

[audiotech]

............................

 

[audiotech]

The commie union leaders were bent on taking power in the country and forming a communist government.

Sorry to disappoint you fred, but most "commie union leaders" ended up in the House of Lords. As for "taking power"? More about co-option I would say.

 

[tbaldwin]

So says baldo, the man who pretends to be left but who is in fact more right wing than Boris Johnson. And I see you've used the auld "If only every one was as clever as you" line again, which reveals more about the way your mind works than you would care to admit. You can take your back handed compliments and stick them where the sun doesn't shine.


Nice try with the projection, baldo but most everyone here knows you're nowt but a common or garden troll.

Oh the everyone here knows line...........More right wing than Boris Johnson, what a line............
Of course i pretend to be Left.....Yeah nino and you of course can decide who is and isnt left wing.

My Politics is straightforward enough Socialism is for everyone not just people like you Nino who think they are really clever............

 

[big footed fred]

And your living in a former mining community has imbued you with this knowledge, has it?
Nothing to do with your pre-existing prejudices then?

It has. I lived here in the strike and saw how the unions bullied people into staying out even when it was clearr it was lost.
Scargill still had his big house to live in while the workers were loosing theirs.

Any decent student of history can find many examples of the right not only plotting, but having the wherewithal to do this during the 1960s, 70s and 80s. Oddly enough though, your ilk choose to extrapolate Scargill's demagoguery as proving that he was "bent on taking power in the country" and always ignore the massive amount of data that shows the right as having been FAR MORE likely (and equipped) to have done that sort of thing.

I'm a little drunk right now so I'll argue with you later.

The right wanted rid of the unions for years. Thatcher did the honours.

So come on, tell me WHY the unions needed smashing, and none of your whimsical musings about "commies" and myths about the unions being a vanguard for a socialist coup, give me some hard fact, some incidence of the secret state having unearthed proof of this conspiracy you say the unions wer engaging in.
Npot that I expect you to take up my challenge, because you know as well as I that you're talking absolute shite.

By 1955 he had become involved in politics as well as trade union activity; he joined the Young Communist League, becoming its Yorkshire District Chair in 1956

That's a start -I'll work on the rest later
http://www.socialist-labour-party.org.uk/artybio.htm

Don't be stupid, Thatcher was the tool that was used to do these things. The minds behind it were the same group of usual suspects from the establishment who'd chuntered on about smashing the unions for 20 yrs. Thatcher was merely stupid enough to listen to the far-right twats.[/QUOTE]

Thatcher beat them hands down. She didn't listen to the far right - she controlled them. The unions had taken power to the extreme and needed stopping.

 

[nino_savatte]

My Politics is straightforward enough Socialism is for everyone not just people like you Nino who think they are really clever............

You're a bullshitter...and we've been through this before.

You keep using the word "clever" as though it were some sort of pejorative. I'm not impressed.

 

[nino_savatte]

............................

Is this the world according to fred?