Civil Service Wide Strike - May 1st

[dennisr]

I agree with what dennis has been saying.

But...I still want to know why the GMB is being called a scab union. Digging my own heels in here.

It ain't a scab union mate. That was an unfortunate turn of phase by another poster in responce to the other posters argument that he is right to go off and join the GMB rather than cahnge his own union branch or support their strike.

I would say the GMB leadership is crap if it thinks the way to build its membership is to poach members of other unions in workplaces where the other union has a clear authority nationally.

The irony is the PCS is the fastest growing union in the UK (as far as I know). And not by going to GMB workplaces and poaching members on the basis of the 'services' it can offer the decerning punter - but by supporting its members in fighting back against attacks by employers on its pay and conditions.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

If you don't build a fightback in the civil service - then you are all being replaced by the same (i'll be out there unionising the cheap labour myself - having seen what has already happened in my trade)

It all comes back to the same thing doesn't - stand up now or roll over now

If we stand up we will just get knocked down harder. In the past there wasn't the great pool of cheap educated labour that there is now which can be imported with out any fuss by the bosses. I wish I had your confidence and optimism but I've seen too many campaigns fail to have that optimism. I'm old enough to see the miners fail, the Wapping print workers fail (mind you theirs was a techological lost cause anyway), dockers fail, railway workers fail to challenge privatisation etc. There have been too many defeats to give me any hope that things would change. Resistance didn't used to be futile but it is now.

And lets get away from this as yet unchallenged idea of yours that what the PCS is doing is 'achieving nothing'. This is rubbish. Finally, you have a union leadership with a long term strategy (just as the government have a strategy to destry your jobs and conditions) - rebuilding the union, particularly among young members, building a tradition of resistance in a previously unconfident and conservative membership, and even winning concessions (unlike most of the trade union movement). And at that moment you walk away...

You say that but where is the 'resistance' in places like my place where 90% ignore the strike. It was seeing the level of scabbing in 04 that made me ask the question why bother.

People keep telling me that pcs is dynamic etc but I don't see it here and I don't hear of it in other places either from friends.

Most of my life I've been involved in positive stuff campaigns etc to the detriment of my own financial well being and I've seen that it was all just a waste of time as things didn't get better they got worse.

I wish I could have afforded to be off today but sadly I couldn't.

 

[dennisr]

I've done my fair share of digging my heels in but I've just got tired of being defeated.

Yep, its been a shite decade - i can commiserate and even share a tear with you over a beer or two recalling battle fought an lost.

The thing is - you are still being defeated.

I know i come out with too many obvious easy homilies but both of us know that 'the more you give the more certain people take' - the civil service is facing the biggest attack on it very existence ever. We need unions who are willing to organise and defend members - the PCS is trying to do that (the GMB is just taking your subs and mouthing words of support for the PCS).

One last appeal to you, FG, from someone who is not much different to you in terms of experience of the last decade plus. Frankly - what have you got to loose except more self respect? For Christs sake there are millions out there who are holding on to every glimmer of light they see when the likes of even civil servants finally start doing thier bit. Why not become part of that - you are going to loose you job security and wages anyway - at least you can say you did not take it lying down - better still, you could even win. Start shining mate.

 

[dennisr]

If we stand up we will just get knocked down harder. In the past there wasn't the great pool of cheap educated labour that there is now which can be imported with out any fuss by the bosses. I wish I had your confidence and optimism but I've seen too many campaigns fail to have that optimism. I'm old enough to see the miners fail, the Wapping print workers fail (mind you theirs was a techological lost cause anyway), dockers fail, railway workers fail to challenge privatisation etc. There have been too many defeats to give me any hope that things would change. Resistance didn't used to be futile but it is now.

Same - spent a year living on Miners pickets and then supported my two uncles in the print at wapping. All I got was the scar over my eye from a proper scab in a blue uniform and a los of a few years on the 'career ladder' trail. But so what. Its not even about optimism (well, it is for the younger folk now coming up to replace old farts like me) - its about self respect. And the ex-miners I am still in touch with - some have been defeated by just as many get on with both their lives and fighting to improve those lives - lives that were changed by their own experience.

That whole edifice is built on a base of sand. And sand can just as easily get washed away. It is not 'all powerful', after all it depends on folk like us (and you, you lazy sod wasting your working time here on a bulletin board ) In our short pathetic little lives we don't often begin to get the chance to see ourselves as part of the bigger picture. Cheap labourers want the decent conditions the rest of us have. Rail workers have elected a union leadership that supports them - that has just won a 're-nationalisation' in effect on the underground. I posted up something about this but its importance was lost on most folk. Yes, the bosses can fool some of us all the time but no all of us and not all the time. Thats not optimism speaking - its the other side of being 'realistic'.

You say that but where is the 'resistance' in places like my place where 90% ignore the strike. It was seeing the level of scabbing in 04 that made me ask the question why bother.

I could argue the case about all those other workplaces you are connected to. But actually, how about simply not being part of that 90% in your workplace? - fuck that 90%? - fuck the roll-over, play-dead, lie-consuming fools? Since when did other peoples mistakes and fears aways have to decide your actions? Thats self-respect.

Sorry, lecture over...

 

[Maggot]

I heard that Customs officers have gone on strike.

Would be a great day to smuggle drugs.

 

[Guineveretoo]

I totally disagree with you working today and if I was a civil servant I would be out today, but Guineveretoo referring to my union as a scab union hasn't exactly endeared him to me either.

Our local GMB branch (not the one I'm a member of) - GMB Holborn - is fully behind the PCS strike and I noticed had even placed an advert in Labour Left Briefing the other day calling on people to support the PCS strike.

So I'd appreciate an explanation for why he's calling us a scab union.

GMB is my union, too, but that doesn't mean it is not a scab union when it attempts to organise members of another union

I would hope and expect that GMB do support the PCS strike - but, that being the case, they should not have accepted into membership a group of dissatisfied PCS members when they are not recognised by that employer.

Innit!

 

[Guineveretoo]

Losing a days pay isn't a big issue for those with savings access to credit cards etc. For others it is a big issue.

We are not all in the same boat.

There is considerable anger in my place about how we can't get strike pay becuase the union can't afford it but pcs can pay high salaries/expenses/junkets to union high ups. I thought the whole idea of a union was to support the members we have had very little support from pcs.

The union does not pay high salaries or expenses or junkets (whatever they are!) to its union officials. Where are you getting that idea from?

 

[Guineveretoo]

Losing a days pay isn't a big issue for those with savings access to credit cards etc. For others it is a big issue.

We are not all in the same boat.

There is considerable anger in my place about how we can't get strike pay becuase the union can't afford it but pcs can pay high salaries/expenses/junkets to union high ups. I thought the whole idea of a union was to support the members we have had very little support from pcs.

You said you could afford to pay twice the subs, though!

 

[Guineveretoo]

Isn't that usually just called "puling a sickie", something that the public sector heads league tables in, unlike productivity and efficiency.

Look behind the statistics before chucking them around!

For a start, the public sector does not head any league table for "pulling a sickie" because no such statistics exist.

They do have comparatively high levels of sickness, and there are many reasons for this. For one thing, they tend to be more sympathetic and supportive of members of staff who are ill or disabled, and avoid breaching their duty of care to people by forcing them into work when they are ill, or sacking them as soon as they are diagnosed with a life threatening disease, or a disability which requires adjustments to be made.

 

[Guineveretoo]

pickets in sheffield were more numerous than on the last strike
, as several who didnt turn out last time were replaced at the recent agm. dwp, dfes, ir and the courts were largely shut down, a skeleton staff of mainly managers keeping themtechnically open. disappointingly small demo, tho with the wether being like it si today, seems to make far more sense to go and lay in around in a park if you can.

Frankly, the rally and demo are not as important as getting offices etc. closed. Once again, the action was more effective outside of London!

 

[Guineveretoo]

No worries. I used to be involved in the old CPSA, and can remember Mark Serwotka when he was nobbut a Branch Secretary. [\memory lane]

Which wasn't that long ago, so don't start pretending you are an oldie!

 

[Guineveretoo]

And the strike will achieve what exactly? Apart from causing hardship to members that is. I gladly signed up for the 04 strike and when I saw how it achieved fuck all in terms of stoppign compulsory redundancies I thought why did I bother? Lets face it CS's have zero support from the public most people believe as Cobbles does that we are a bunch of parasites. I would have gladly gone on strike if there was strike pay.

To add. If I lose a days money it is the difference between just squeeking through the month and having to go to a loan shark to cash a cheque at 25%+ interest just to survive. Those who shout SCAB at people are probably the most comfortably off and can afford to lose money some of us can't.



Reluctantly I should say. Gave me a twinge of regret that I wasn't striking but I'm not going to put myself out if no other fucker is going to.


Glad it worked out for some people.

Did you apply to the hardship fund the last time you went on strike?

 

[Guineveretoo]

The reply is scabbing will achieve what exactly?

During the last dispute I tried to understand your points. I was sympathetic to th reality of a possible crap union branch. I tried to argue the wider points gently and understanding your bad experiences. This time around Guin has shown a similar understanding


But this time around - fuck it - you are a scab mate. Why join another union? - why don't you simply leave the union movement rather than become another on of the useless prawns that make the present union movement so weak, divisive and pathetic and petty. 'service' my arse - that is the most pathetic excuse for scabbing i have heard.

To put it less subtly - It is thanks to people like you that we are all (including you...) in the shite we are. you are spineless coward - i don't mean that as personal spite or anger - but it is what you are. Live with it and don't come moaning to the rest of us about your pay and conditions if you are not willing to help build the one movement that can roll back all this crap. Or, get off of your knees

Actually, I was much more patient last time, when I also sent several PMs offering advice about how to organise his Branch, including names of people, seeing as how I know that PCS Branch and full time official very well

 

[Guineveretoo]

I agree with what dennis has been saying.

But...I still want to know why the GMB is being called a scab union. Digging my own heels in here.

Sorry - I was busy elsewhere. I have now explained what I meant by that

 

[Guineveretoo]

I agree there.



I am demoralised and beaten. It seems that there is no such thing as solidarity just individual consumers. Life is brain damage enough without making it even harder.


I've done my fair share of digging my heels in but I've just got tired of being defeated.

Are you showing solidarity with your colleagues who are losing their jobs and their livelihoods, by refusing to join them on the strike either this time or last time?

 

[Guineveretoo]

Not opportunism just seeing things how they are. I would have loved to have supported the action today but I just fucking couldn't. I didn't want to have to go begging for handouts because I supported a strike that wouldn't achieve anything.



Very true. And what hurts most is the is fuck all that can be done to stop them walking over us. I wish that wasn't the case but it is. Stand up and speak out and you will be replaced by some cipher / yes man / cheap eastern european.

One minute you say that you would have taken industrial action if there had been strike pay available, and then you say that you wouldn't have accepted it because the strike wouldn't achieve anything.

You are full of contradictions, aren't you!

 

[Guineveretoo]

It ain't a scab union mate. That was an unfortunate turn of phase by another poster in responce to the other posters argument that he is right to go off and join the GMB rather than cahnge his own union branch or support their strike.

I would say the GMB leadership is crap if it thinks the way to build its membership is to poach members of other unions in workplaces where the other union has a clear authority nationally.

The irony is the PCS is the fastest growing union in the UK (as far as I know). And not by going to GMB workplaces and poaching members on the basis of the 'services' it can offer the decerning punter - but by supporting its members in fighting back against attacks by employers on its pay and conditions.

It was a deliberate use of the phrase actually because, in this context, they are a scab union!



Where did you get the notion that the PCS is the fastest growing union in the UK? From their website, by any chance?

 

[Guineveretoo]

If we stand up we will just get knocked down harder. In the past there wasn't the great pool of cheap educated labour that there is now which can be imported with out any fuss by the bosses. I wish I had your confidence and optimism but I've seen too many campaigns fail to have that optimism. I'm old enough to see the miners fail, the Wapping print workers fail (mind you theirs was a techological lost cause anyway), dockers fail, railway workers fail to challenge privatisation etc. There have been too many defeats to give me any hope that things would change. Resistance didn't used to be futile but it is now.



You say that but where is the 'resistance' in places like my place where 90% ignore the strike. It was seeing the level of scabbing in 04 that made me ask the question why bother.

People keep telling me that pcs is dynamic etc but I don't see it here and I don't hear of it in other places either from friends.

Most of my life I've been involved in positive stuff campaigns etc to the detriment of my own financial well being and I've seen that it was all just a waste of time as things didn't get better they got worse.

I wish I could have afforded to be off today but sadly I couldn't.

There is that made up figure again. 90% of what/who have ignored the strike. There were certainly more than 90% of PCS members IN YOUR DEPARTMENT who honoured the strike, so not sure why you are making that up, mate! Surely you know that I know it's fictional?

 

[dennisr]

It was a deliberate use of the phrase actually because, in this context, they are a scab union!

Where did you get the notion that the PCS is the fastest growing union in the UK? From their website, by any chance?

don't think i'd go quite as far but I reckon you have every right to say so (given membership and all...)

just hearsay - but from PCS members - hence the 'as far as i know' clause

so KJ was making the figures up re his/her workplace! Ahh, one of these is appropriate then >

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Did you apply to the hardship fund the last time you went on strike?

Didn't know it was available.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Actually, I was much more patient last time, when I also sent several PMs offering advice about how to organise his Branch, including names of people, seeing as how I know that PCS Branch and full time official very well

The informationwas useful but I wasn't reallyin a position personally to take on that sort of role at that time. From what I could gather talking to other union officials around that time it seemed that nothing could be changed due to the blocking of stuff further up the chain.

I didn't feel that Iwould get the support I would have needed to rebuild the branch from my branch members nor from the rest of the union.

This was partially due to inertia on the part of the members and the fact that they try to be 'non political' intheir daily lives and work lives and PCS was seen by quite a few to be over politicised.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Same - spent a year living on Miners pickets and then supported my two uncles in the print at wapping. All I got was the scar over my eye from a proper scab in a blue uniform and a los of a few years on the 'career ladder' trail. But so what. Its not even about optimism (well, it is for the younger folk now coming up to replace old farts like me) - its about self respect. And the ex-miners I am still in touch with - some have been defeated by just as many get on with both their lives and fighting to improve those lives - lives that were changed by their own experience.

The problem is is that for the majority of people self respect is not what you do it is now what you buy.

That whole edifice is built on a base of sand. And sand can just as easily get washed away. It is not 'all powerful', after all it depends on folk like us (and you, you lazy sod wasting your working time here on a bulletin board )

From where I'm sitting it looks all powerful to me.

In our short pathetic little lives we don't often begin to get the chance to see ourselves as part of the bigger picture. Cheap labourers want the decent conditions the rest of us have. Rail workers have elected a union leadership that supports them - that has just won a 're-nationalisation' in effect on the underground. I posted up something about this but its importance was lost on most folk. Yes, the bosses can fool some of us all the time but no all of us and not all the time. Thats not optimism speaking - its the other side of being 'realistic'.

The thing is the railway workers have a supportive leadership but pcs doesn't. PCS seems to care so little for the ordinary member that people no longer care.

I could argue the case about all those other workplaces you are connected to. But actually, how about simply not being part of that 90% in your workplace? - fuck that 90%? - fuck the roll-over, play-dead, lie-consuming fools? Since when did other peoples mistakes and fears aways have to decide your actions? Thats self-respect.

Sorry, lecture over...

The problem is their fears are also my fears, fears that I won't be able to get through the month (just had to pay £100 to Gordon Brown in fucking stealth tax today as well - fucking bastard ), fears that I'll end up on a managment 'list', fears that I will be put in a position where I won't be able to support my partner if she needs it. Self respect costs and I've been paying for fucking years doing the right thing and getting shat upon whilst those I grew up with who had less morals raked it in. I've only just found happiness and I don't want to jeapordise that just for a noble stupid gesture.

Whens the next strike I'll take a days leave that way I wont have to go in and won't lose dosh.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

You said you could afford to pay twice the subs, though!

twice the subs is less than losing a days pay.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

One minute you say that you would have taken industrial action if there had been strike pay available, and then you say that you wouldn't have accepted it because the strike wouldn't achieve anything.

You are full of contradictions, aren't you!

I would have struck if strike pay had been available but I'm doubtful if the strike is going to achieve anything. But I would have backed my colleauges. I just didn't think it was worth getting myself in deep financial and other shit for without back up.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

There is that made up figure again. 90% of what/who have ignored the strike. There were certainly more than 90% of PCS members IN YOUR DEPARTMENT who honoured the strike, so not sure why you are making that up, mate! Surely you know that I know it's fictional?

I'm referring to my immediate workplace. 90% scabbed.

 

[dennisr]

The problem is is that for the majority of people self respect is not what you do it is now what you buy.

But thats 'them' not 'you' surely? - you know this won't make you happy (actually, i think the majority have an inkling... but thats another thing) and you know it does not give you, personally, self respect - anymore than attempts to excuse yourself.

From where I'm sitting it looks all powerful to me.

Yep, i can understand that. Even if it is (which it ain't) 'feck em all'

The thing is the railway workers have a supportive leadership but pcs doesn't. PCS seems to care so little for the ordinary member that people no longer care.

That I don't know about, not a member - but, not the impression I got from picket lines today or seen from union election results. Serewotka for example seems to me to be just an ordinary fella doing an extaordinary job (after all he could have dropped the politics and stuck to providing 'services' while selling his members down the swany - the other union leaders seem to have got away with it for a while)- so do the ones I've met over the last few weeks - ordinary, imperfect people. And if so - thats what you change in your workplace.

The problem is their fears are also my fears ... I've only just found happiness and I don't want to jeapordise that just for a noble stupid gesture.

Yep, I understand that mate. But losing yourself in that fear? your self-respect? - whatever excuses (and plenty of valid fears...) you make to legitimise this to yourself, it will cost an awful lot more. I think you know that - It won't make for a happy person. To say nowt about not joining the fight against the attacks that are going to go on - whether you stand up for yourself or not - because of the governments neo-liberal agenda.

Its not about doing the right thing ultimately - maybe the old sense of genuine 'solidarity' is just a more sorted, thought out version of 'self interest'. We are social animals living in a society - whatever Thatcher ('there is no such thing as society' bollocks) may have wished. We need each other - we just don't recognise that all the time, to our cost. maybe it something thats only just being re-learnt or reminded of by those PCS members that went on strike today

Whens the next strike I'll take a days leave that way I wont have to go in and won't lose dosh.

That sounds fair enough to me, sounds like the most practical solution in your personal circumstances.

Funnily enough - I wish I had the security you have re regular income, was able to walk away from work at a certain time, get paid even when things are a bit slack etc. I would not want you folk to loose that - even you personally, you scabby bugger My industry was destroyed. I think you would be a fool to let what you have go without having stood up for yourself and alongside colleagues. If you think it costs now - it can get a damn sight harder. ( blimey, I sound like my mother now... )

 

[Cobbles]

For a start, the public sector does not head any league table for "pulling a sickie" because no such statistics exist.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/economics/comment/0,,1260059,00.html

"Reportedly furious at figures showing that public sector workers took 40% more sick leave than those in the private sector, the chancellor promised to end self-certification"

*cough*

They do have comparatively high levels of sickness, and there are many reasons for this. For one thing, they tend to be more sympathetic and supportive of members of staff who are ill or disabled, and avoid breaching their duty of care to people by forcing them into work when they are ill, or sacking them as soon as they are diagnosed with a life threatening disease, or a disability which requires adjustments to be made.

Awwwwwwww diddums got an ickle wickle coughey? - why not take the rest of the week off then you can com ein and we'll have a team hug.

 

[dennisr]

Awwwwwwww diddums got an ickle wickle coughey? - why not take the rest of the week off then you can com ein and we'll have a team hug.

Oh feck, Alf Garnets back. Piss off Alf you selfish, goldfish bowl minded tosser

 

[audiotech]

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/economics/comment/0,,1260059,00.html

"Reportedly furious at figures showing that public sector workers took 40% more sick leave than those in the private sector, the chancellor promised to end self-certification"

*cough*

I'd ring in sick and get that cold sorted if I was you.

While NHS workers retreat to bed on 11.6 days each year, those employed in private consultancy services are the most likely to turn up, off ill an average 5.5 days a year.

My emphasis.

Who are "those employed in private consultancy services" NHS workers are been compared to and what do they do? Are NHS workers expected to turn up to work in a hospital with a virus these days then?

 

[dennisr]

Who are "those employed in private consultancy services" NHS workers are been compared to and what do they do? Are NHS workers expected to turn up to work in a hospital with a virus these days then?

The same sort of 'private consultancy service' type that probably 'created' the useless statistics cobbles pointed to as a way of creaming its easy money from the NHS. Were the hell do all these artificial 'consultants' come from and what are they achieving apart from bankrupting NHS Trusts? Now we could begin to chat with cobblers about real parasites....