CIA Tortured Me
- Thread starter QuestForFreedom
- Start date
I love you
QuestForFreedom
New Member
as far as the whole feeling that worms are under my skin, i guess this wasnt a good description, i dont feel like i want to scratch myself because it itches, its not a physical pain, rather its a mental pain, like i just want to rip myslef free from the pain by scratching and tearing off my skin, or sometimes i just picture myself being whipped (and other forms of physcial torture) just to try to bring some relief to the mental pain
QuestForFreedom
New Member
tomorrow i will answer all questions, tonight too much pain
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Understanding paranoia
What can family and friends do? Living with a paranoid person is exceedingly distressing, made worse by the person's own lack of insight into their condition, and occasional aggressive outbreaks. Families, friends and carers should not suffer in silence. They should ask friends and relatives to help out, and try to get some time away. If the delusions have a religious content, it may be worth contacting an appropriate person at the local church, mosque, temple or synagogue. The following strategies may be helpful.
Establishing control It's necessary to help the person separate out what he or she can or can't control. For example, someone may not be able to stop hearing voices, but may have more control over how they interpret and react to what the voices say. This is particularly important if voices are very self-destructive, urging people to hurt themselves or attack someone else. There is a growing body of literature on coping with hearing voices, and this is an area where CBT has been beneficial.
Supporting good judgement It's important to sort out those things that could have some basis in reality ("the bus driver is unfriendly") from those that couldn't ("the milkman is poisoning the milk"). It can be very damaging to the paranoid person's self-esteem if it's always assumed that everything they say is wrong. Recognising when he or she is showing good judgement is helpful and therapeutic.
Foreseeing difficulties It's best to anticipate problems, rather than waiting for them to happen. For example, when moving to a new area, or a new job, it's a good idea to talk over the kind of difficulties that might arise, such as the threat of mixing with new people. Any visitors also need to be aware of the problem.
Distinguish facts from assumptions It's much better to regard thoughts as assumptions based on evidence, rather than as solid facts. Assumptions and evidence can be questioned and discussed, and can therefore be revised. This is the approach used by cognitive behaviour therapists. Acquiring information about paranoia can make the disorder seem less mysterious and threatening, and can give everyone additional hints on coping.
Communicating honestly When someone with paranoia believes something that is almost certainly incorrect, it's always necessary to stand firm. Say that you accept that they have their beliefs, but that you don't share them.
Avoiding confrontation To tell someone they are stupid or talking rubbish is disrespectful, dismissive and unhelpful. It damages self-esteem, gives the impression that you do not care about the person, and is liable to make things worse.
Encouraging independence It's a mistake to be over-protective, over-involved or critical. Everybody needs space to live their life, as well as respect and love. It's also helpful to encourage general conversation about things other than the person's delusions.
Taking a positive approach People suffering from paranoia are often intelligent, imaginative and talented people. Their paranoia is really an unfortunate misuse of their imagination. It's well worth looking through it towards the positive qualities that underlie it. Many people have turned their irrational thinking around and eventually made it work for them, not against them.
Self-help groups There may be other families in the neighbourhood who have similar difficulties, and you may be able to find this out, perhaps via the hospital or local health centre. There's no need to leave the therapy entirely to the professionals. Families can help each other.
What can family and friends do? Living with a paranoid person is exceedingly distressing, made worse by the person's own lack of insight into their condition, and occasional aggressive outbreaks. Families, friends and carers should not suffer in silence. They should ask friends and relatives to help out, and try to get some time away. If the delusions have a religious content, it may be worth contacting an appropriate person at the local church, mosque, temple or synagogue. The following strategies may be helpful.
Establishing control It's necessary to help the person separate out what he or she can or can't control. For example, someone may not be able to stop hearing voices, but may have more control over how they interpret and react to what the voices say. This is particularly important if voices are very self-destructive, urging people to hurt themselves or attack someone else. There is a growing body of literature on coping with hearing voices, and this is an area where CBT has been beneficial.
Supporting good judgement It's important to sort out those things that could have some basis in reality ("the bus driver is unfriendly") from those that couldn't ("the milkman is poisoning the milk"). It can be very damaging to the paranoid person's self-esteem if it's always assumed that everything they say is wrong. Recognising when he or she is showing good judgement is helpful and therapeutic.
Foreseeing difficulties It's best to anticipate problems, rather than waiting for them to happen. For example, when moving to a new area, or a new job, it's a good idea to talk over the kind of difficulties that might arise, such as the threat of mixing with new people. Any visitors also need to be aware of the problem.
Distinguish facts from assumptions It's much better to regard thoughts as assumptions based on evidence, rather than as solid facts. Assumptions and evidence can be questioned and discussed, and can therefore be revised. This is the approach used by cognitive behaviour therapists. Acquiring information about paranoia can make the disorder seem less mysterious and threatening, and can give everyone additional hints on coping.
Communicating honestly When someone with paranoia believes something that is almost certainly incorrect, it's always necessary to stand firm. Say that you accept that they have their beliefs, but that you don't share them.
Avoiding confrontation To tell someone they are stupid or talking rubbish is disrespectful, dismissive and unhelpful. It damages self-esteem, gives the impression that you do not care about the person, and is liable to make things worse.
Encouraging independence It's a mistake to be over-protective, over-involved or critical. Everybody needs space to live their life, as well as respect and love. It's also helpful to encourage general conversation about things other than the person's delusions.
Taking a positive approach People suffering from paranoia are often intelligent, imaginative and talented people. Their paranoia is really an unfortunate misuse of their imagination. It's well worth looking through it towards the positive qualities that underlie it. Many people have turned their irrational thinking around and eventually made it work for them, not against them.
Self-help groups There may be other families in the neighbourhood who have similar difficulties, and you may be able to find this out, perhaps via the hospital or local health centre. There's no need to leave the therapy entirely to the professionals. Families can help each other.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Can I ask you an honest question? Do you have any history of methamphetamine use?
I ask because these kind of abstract paranoid delusions are symptomatic of methamphetamine induced paranoia. Seeing unconnected events as part of a systematic conspiracy against you. Seeing threats and danger where they don't exist. Please be honest in your answer?
His symptoms could be one of a few conditions. However, people who suffer drug induced delusions are often aware that they are unwell even if they don't know the drugs are causing the problems. The fact s/he is unaware or even accepts that all of this could be a result of a medical condition and just wants to be believed that the CIA is behind it all suggests, well I'm no expert, but schizophrenia is like that. You live in that condition and think it's all real.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Look on the bright side, at least you don't think you've got MS. 
"paranoia can be an element in over eighty different medical conditions"
source: Understanding paranoia
source: Understanding paranoia
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
HAVE YOU TRIED MASTURBATION
I've got a Lybian friend in Oxford who comes out with similar stuff that you are saying. The worrying thing is although I and many other people around him think that he is delusional, I wouldn't put it past some rich don(s) to play stupid mind games with him.
Have you got any close friends at hand, go and talk to them.
They may have a more objective perspective on what is going on.
Giving out this sort of vibe, may attract some nasty people to play head games with you.
Remember just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not after you!!!!!!
Badger Kitten
oof
Hi QuestForFreedom
It sounds like you are an intelligent and logical person, with a good education, and as a medical researcher you are used to evaluating evidence
Let's run with the idea that you are being tortured by Farsi speaking spies and think about the logic of it
Being logical, it's an incredibly ineffective way of spying on someone, isn't it?.
First of all, they are not getting any information from you, there is no clear benefit to them in what they are doing. They can't be sure whether you have any useful information, they don't even seem to have tried to find out!
It would be very easy to find out if you have anything worth knowing. They could arrest you and question you, go into your home and search your possessions quite easily. Even the CIA do not have unlimited resources and they do have to justify what they are doing in terms of time, resource and usefulness.
Following and torturing you is undoubtedly using up a lot of their resources - and all for nothing, because you don't have any information and you don't know anything that is of use to a spy. As you said yourself, there are very, very few Farsi-speaking Americans, even fewer Farsi-speaking Americans who are working for the CIA. The CIA's small number of Farsi-speaking spies are needed for lots of important tasks where their ability to speak Farsi is useful, such as translating documents, listening and surveillance tasks - and it is to be expected that they would work mainly in countries and communities where people speak Farsi and are believed to be engaged in the planning of threats against the US.
It is extremely odd that so many of them are being used in this very inefficient strategy of following you about and looking at you strangely, for such limited return.
When you think about all the people there are in Iran, or in other countries, or in America who speak Farsi - who might really have useful information for an American spy - Iranian scientists who might know whether there is an active nuclear weapon building programme, for example, or Iranian military people or politicians, or financiers, or spies, for example, any of whom might be worth listening to if you are a Farsi-speaking US spy, it would be very, very hard to justify to your spy bosses why you are spending so much time and money pursuing you in particular, instead of them.
The Farsi-speaking CIA spies are very lucky indeed that you find people looking at you strangely and hearing voices talking to you in Farsi so terrifying and horrible. Most people don't notice if someone looks at them strangely, or they just brush it off, or they look right back at the person with a glare and a 'what's your problem mate?'; in your case, you find it so disturbing that you actually feel physical pain and horrible terrors day and night.
In the cases of other people who have been tortured by the CIA, or M15 or M16 or ISI or one of their proxies or allies, the torture is much more direct and physical. The usual method is for people to be snatched and taken somewhere for interrogation, severe physical and psychological abuse is used. Beatings, electricity, scalpels, injections, restraint, fake executions, threats to kill or rape family members, use of dogs, or other inhumane and degrading treatment. It's much more direct and much more efficient than following someone about, costing hundreds of thousands of dollars and man hours for such little return.
So, you do have to wonder what the point of all this is. Being totally logical, what you are describing sounds so unusual as to be unprecedented in the history of spycraft and surveillance, incredibly ineffective and ultimately pointless - unless the idea is to get you to 'spread the word' on the internet about your fear and distress to somehow 'warn off' others. But warn others off doing what? You have not done anything wrong, have you? And people are in general not reacting with fear of the CIA - they are demonstrating different reactions - incredulity, concern, laughter, teasing. If the strategy is for people to be made fearful of the CIA, they can go and look at Gitmo pictures, can't they?
On the other hand, still being totally logical, many many other people have had the same experiences you describe: the horrifying feeling of people looking strangely at them, hearing whispers and voices, the shaking at night, the ever-present fear and horror, the certain knowledge that M16 or M15 or the CIA are after them. These feelings are absolutely classic symptoms of a very common issue that affects many people all over the world, which causes great suffering. You must know that many people with the symptoms you describe so vividly find it hard to believe that they are not real. An inability to be logical about it, and consider the possibility that the beliefs you have might not be reality-based, although the feelings of fear and pain are real enough, is one of the symptoms.
Often the feelings are a clever way of expressing something real, truthful and personal to the person - the sense of anxiety, fear, ambivalence, mistrust or whatever. As an Iranian-American, it would not be unusual or unexpected for you to feel anxious and uncomfortable about the US state's intentions towards Iran, after listening to Bush's bellicose axis of evil rhetoric and so on. Could it be that this is expressing itself in you a poetic and symbolic way - the idea of being spied on and threatened? Would you be able to consider it, even as a possibility?
Using your logical mind that helped you to get good grades, please at least think about this, and try to challenge the terrifying fear when it takes hold of you by questioning it. It's understandable to feel anxious and threatened, to be concerned about your safe place in the world. But logic and intelligent reasoning should also be applied as well as emotion - wishing you all the best.
It sounds like you are an intelligent and logical person, with a good education, and as a medical researcher you are used to evaluating evidence
Let's run with the idea that you are being tortured by Farsi speaking spies and think about the logic of it
Being logical, it's an incredibly ineffective way of spying on someone, isn't it?.
First of all, they are not getting any information from you, there is no clear benefit to them in what they are doing. They can't be sure whether you have any useful information, they don't even seem to have tried to find out!
It would be very easy to find out if you have anything worth knowing. They could arrest you and question you, go into your home and search your possessions quite easily. Even the CIA do not have unlimited resources and they do have to justify what they are doing in terms of time, resource and usefulness.
Following and torturing you is undoubtedly using up a lot of their resources - and all for nothing, because you don't have any information and you don't know anything that is of use to a spy. As you said yourself, there are very, very few Farsi-speaking Americans, even fewer Farsi-speaking Americans who are working for the CIA. The CIA's small number of Farsi-speaking spies are needed for lots of important tasks where their ability to speak Farsi is useful, such as translating documents, listening and surveillance tasks - and it is to be expected that they would work mainly in countries and communities where people speak Farsi and are believed to be engaged in the planning of threats against the US.
It is extremely odd that so many of them are being used in this very inefficient strategy of following you about and looking at you strangely, for such limited return.
When you think about all the people there are in Iran, or in other countries, or in America who speak Farsi - who might really have useful information for an American spy - Iranian scientists who might know whether there is an active nuclear weapon building programme, for example, or Iranian military people or politicians, or financiers, or spies, for example, any of whom might be worth listening to if you are a Farsi-speaking US spy, it would be very, very hard to justify to your spy bosses why you are spending so much time and money pursuing you in particular, instead of them.
The Farsi-speaking CIA spies are very lucky indeed that you find people looking at you strangely and hearing voices talking to you in Farsi so terrifying and horrible. Most people don't notice if someone looks at them strangely, or they just brush it off, or they look right back at the person with a glare and a 'what's your problem mate?'; in your case, you find it so disturbing that you actually feel physical pain and horrible terrors day and night.
In the cases of other people who have been tortured by the CIA, or M15 or M16 or ISI or one of their proxies or allies, the torture is much more direct and physical. The usual method is for people to be snatched and taken somewhere for interrogation, severe physical and psychological abuse is used. Beatings, electricity, scalpels, injections, restraint, fake executions, threats to kill or rape family members, use of dogs, or other inhumane and degrading treatment. It's much more direct and much more efficient than following someone about, costing hundreds of thousands of dollars and man hours for such little return.
So, you do have to wonder what the point of all this is. Being totally logical, what you are describing sounds so unusual as to be unprecedented in the history of spycraft and surveillance, incredibly ineffective and ultimately pointless - unless the idea is to get you to 'spread the word' on the internet about your fear and distress to somehow 'warn off' others. But warn others off doing what? You have not done anything wrong, have you? And people are in general not reacting with fear of the CIA - they are demonstrating different reactions - incredulity, concern, laughter, teasing. If the strategy is for people to be made fearful of the CIA, they can go and look at Gitmo pictures, can't they?
On the other hand, still being totally logical, many many other people have had the same experiences you describe: the horrifying feeling of people looking strangely at them, hearing whispers and voices, the shaking at night, the ever-present fear and horror, the certain knowledge that M16 or M15 or the CIA are after them. These feelings are absolutely classic symptoms of a very common issue that affects many people all over the world, which causes great suffering. You must know that many people with the symptoms you describe so vividly find it hard to believe that they are not real. An inability to be logical about it, and consider the possibility that the beliefs you have might not be reality-based, although the feelings of fear and pain are real enough, is one of the symptoms.
Often the feelings are a clever way of expressing something real, truthful and personal to the person - the sense of anxiety, fear, ambivalence, mistrust or whatever. As an Iranian-American, it would not be unusual or unexpected for you to feel anxious and uncomfortable about the US state's intentions towards Iran, after listening to Bush's bellicose axis of evil rhetoric and so on. Could it be that this is expressing itself in you a poetic and symbolic way - the idea of being spied on and threatened? Would you be able to consider it, even as a possibility?
Using your logical mind that helped you to get good grades, please at least think about this, and try to challenge the terrifying fear when it takes hold of you by questioning it. It's understandable to feel anxious and threatened, to be concerned about your safe place in the world. But logic and intelligent reasoning should also be applied as well as emotion - wishing you all the best.
Supporting good judgement It's important to sort out those things that could have some basis in reality ("the bus driver is unfriendly") from those that couldn't ("the milkman is poisoning the milk"). It can be very damaging to the paranoid person's self-esteem if it's always assumed that everything they say is wrong. Recognising when he or she is showing good judgement is helpful and therapeutic.
Distinguish facts from assumptions It's much better to regard thoughts as assumptions based on evidence, rather than as solid facts. Assumptions and evidence can be questioned and discussed, and can therefore be revised. This is the approach used by cognitive behaviour therapists. Acquiring information about paranoia can make the disorder seem less mysterious and threatening, and can give everyone additional hints on coping.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The fact is we actually can't say that this person is under some kind of CIA/Homeland Security/etc surveillance or not, even if it is highly unlikely and not at all as described.
Even if they are paranoid and delusional it might actually be true that at some point they have been "looked at" even if it all it amounted to was a few extra questions at passport control on their way back from Iran. They may also have been subject to suspicion in Iran - for example the following is from the US State Department website:
"Iranian authorities have prevented a number of American citizen academics, scientists, journalists, and others who traveled to Iran for personal/cultural/business reasons from leaving the country, and in some cases have detained, interrogated and imprisoned them on unknown or various charges, including espionage and being a threat to the regime. Americans of Iranian origin should consider the risk of being targeted by authorities before planning travel to Iran ... Iranian security personnel may at times place foreign visitors under surveillance. Hotel rooms, telephones and fax machines may be monitored, and personal possessions in hotel rooms may be searched"
...so obviously an Iranian-American is caught between two fairly paranoid regimes which are involved in a proxy war.
The fact is that this guy *has* experienced (subjectively) a range of things, and is interpreting these in a certain way. Trying to claim that these things simply didn't happen isn't very persuasive (we weren't actually there). Arguing that these things are completely impossible isn't that persuasive because they aren't technically impossible. Arguing that they are 'unlikely' is technically a valid line of argument but ignores what its like to actually be the subjective observer of events rather than someone who hasn't directly had these experiences - it is easy to weigh up a range of interpretations when you are not experiencing extreme emotions such as fear, when you are not having realistic aural and visual hallucinations, or when you mind is jumping around and racing as if you are permanently jacked up on a mixture of cocaine/speed/lsd/cannabis/coffee.
Yes it is good advice to suggest this guy tries out some psychiatric treatment - not because this will 'prove' him wrong but because it might help him feel less stressed out/fearful/mentaly distressed. there might be some downsides from his point of view if he gets locked up, control over other aspects of his life are taken away or if medication given has unpleasant effects, but if he can get decent and sympathetic treatment (instead of the shite treatment that many people get) then there is nothing to lose by trying it out.
It may be that even if his paranoia and delusional thinking goes away he will *still* think he is on a state "watch-list" - a lot of people on u75 think the same thing because they occasionally go on a demo or post online, whereas this guy thinks it is due to his connections with Iran. But the basic problem is not whether it is actually true but projecting these ideas onto unconnected aspects of life and/or being mentally distressed 24/7 because of them. The mental processes which produce paranoia can manifest in different ways (not all are as negative or overwhealming) and people can learn to react to aural and visual hallucinations in a different way:
eg: From the MIND (the leading mental health charity in England and Wales) booklet "The voice inside"
"Firstly, hearing voices has been regarded by clinical psychiatry as an auditory hallucination and as a symptom of conditions such as schizophrenic disorders, bipolar disorder (manic depression) and psychosis. The usual treatment - major tranquilliser - is administered in order to reduce the delusions and hallucinations. However, not everyone responds to this type of treatment.
Secondly, there are many people in the UK who hear voices, some of whom cope with their voices well without psychiatric intervention. This fact has been neglected. This guide asks if there is another way of thinking about voices?..."
Distinguish facts from assumptions It's much better to regard thoughts as assumptions based on evidence, rather than as solid facts. Assumptions and evidence can be questioned and discussed, and can therefore be revised. This is the approach used by cognitive behaviour therapists. Acquiring information about paranoia can make the disorder seem less mysterious and threatening, and can give everyone additional hints on coping.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The fact is we actually can't say that this person is under some kind of CIA/Homeland Security/etc surveillance or not, even if it is highly unlikely and not at all as described.
Even if they are paranoid and delusional it might actually be true that at some point they have been "looked at" even if it all it amounted to was a few extra questions at passport control on their way back from Iran. They may also have been subject to suspicion in Iran - for example the following is from the US State Department website:
"Iranian authorities have prevented a number of American citizen academics, scientists, journalists, and others who traveled to Iran for personal/cultural/business reasons from leaving the country, and in some cases have detained, interrogated and imprisoned them on unknown or various charges, including espionage and being a threat to the regime. Americans of Iranian origin should consider the risk of being targeted by authorities before planning travel to Iran ... Iranian security personnel may at times place foreign visitors under surveillance. Hotel rooms, telephones and fax machines may be monitored, and personal possessions in hotel rooms may be searched"
...so obviously an Iranian-American is caught between two fairly paranoid regimes which are involved in a proxy war.
The fact is that this guy *has* experienced (subjectively) a range of things, and is interpreting these in a certain way. Trying to claim that these things simply didn't happen isn't very persuasive (we weren't actually there). Arguing that these things are completely impossible isn't that persuasive because they aren't technically impossible. Arguing that they are 'unlikely' is technically a valid line of argument but ignores what its like to actually be the subjective observer of events rather than someone who hasn't directly had these experiences - it is easy to weigh up a range of interpretations when you are not experiencing extreme emotions such as fear, when you are not having realistic aural and visual hallucinations, or when you mind is jumping around and racing as if you are permanently jacked up on a mixture of cocaine/speed/lsd/cannabis/coffee.
Yes it is good advice to suggest this guy tries out some psychiatric treatment - not because this will 'prove' him wrong but because it might help him feel less stressed out/fearful/mentaly distressed. there might be some downsides from his point of view if he gets locked up, control over other aspects of his life are taken away or if medication given has unpleasant effects, but if he can get decent and sympathetic treatment (instead of the shite treatment that many people get) then there is nothing to lose by trying it out.
It may be that even if his paranoia and delusional thinking goes away he will *still* think he is on a state "watch-list" - a lot of people on u75 think the same thing because they occasionally go on a demo or post online, whereas this guy thinks it is due to his connections with Iran. But the basic problem is not whether it is actually true but projecting these ideas onto unconnected aspects of life and/or being mentally distressed 24/7 because of them. The mental processes which produce paranoia can manifest in different ways (not all are as negative or overwhealming) and people can learn to react to aural and visual hallucinations in a different way:
eg: From the MIND (the leading mental health charity in England and Wales) booklet "The voice inside"
"Firstly, hearing voices has been regarded by clinical psychiatry as an auditory hallucination and as a symptom of conditions such as schizophrenic disorders, bipolar disorder (manic depression) and psychosis. The usual treatment - major tranquilliser - is administered in order to reduce the delusions and hallucinations. However, not everyone responds to this type of treatment.
Secondly, there are many people in the UK who hear voices, some of whom cope with their voices well without psychiatric intervention. This fact has been neglected. This guide asks if there is another way of thinking about voices?..."
@ Badger Kitten
I share your doubt that this guy is being "tortured" by the CIA. However you seem to be suggesting that surveillance, intimidation and harassment by state agencies doesn't happen, despite "sane" people reporting that it does (typically political activists etc). You say that US agencies use "beatings, electricity, scalpels, injections, restraint, fake executions, threats to kill or rape family members, use of dogs, or other inhumane and degrading treatment" (on non-US citizens) yet you seem to be saying that they wouldn't use lower-level techniques. I know you have "contacts" in the security services and have studied how they officially operate, but have you ever been on the receiving end or looked into the unofficial/rule-breaking sides of police and intelligence work?
What do you actually know about this guy, his contacts in Iran or in the US? For all we know he lives in the middle of nowhere and has been 'profiled' by some backwoods law-enforcement agency as the only young male 'middle eastern' type person within hundreds of miles? You are *probably* right, but actually we don't know. There might be elements of truth mixed in with his paranoia, but how are we able to tell which is which? Using 'logic' and 'evidence' we can't. All we can say is that we don't know what experiences and interactions he has had, but that we find the explanations and conclusions offered don't follow from and go beyond the evidence he has described and are implausible. We can't say nothing has happened, that he has had no contact with any government agency at any time and so forth.
You say that things are "not real" and mention an "inability to be logical about it", but in fact his experiences are "real" in that they are "real" experiences even if he is drawing the wrong conclusions about other people and the world from these experiences. It is also not quite right to talk about a lack of logic since it is "logical" to assume that if you hear a sound then that sound exists (for example) - under normal circumstances. If someone can provide evidence that it is an aural hallucination then logic allows you to draw different conclusions, but nooone has 'proved' this yet. What is 'logical' often merges with what is 'plausible', and this often rests on what 'feels' plausible, which is also linked to what someone has personally experienced. There is not the rigid dividing line that you are claiming.
In any case (and leaving aside our lack of information) using 'logic' to talk someone round from feeling an intense emotion is limited in the same way as using 'logic' when someone is extremely upset about a breavement or break-up, or when someone is out of it on drugs. Yes it might have some use but it is limited. Dealing with the emotions involved, offering actual concrete support (rather than contesting their experiences) and suggesting in terms they can accept how to sort out their problems - including identifying things you can both agree on specifically 'problems' and the solutions to these.
I share your doubt that this guy is being "tortured" by the CIA. However you seem to be suggesting that surveillance, intimidation and harassment by state agencies doesn't happen, despite "sane" people reporting that it does (typically political activists etc). You say that US agencies use "beatings, electricity, scalpels, injections, restraint, fake executions, threats to kill or rape family members, use of dogs, or other inhumane and degrading treatment" (on non-US citizens) yet you seem to be saying that they wouldn't use lower-level techniques. I know you have "contacts" in the security services and have studied how they officially operate, but have you ever been on the receiving end or looked into the unofficial/rule-breaking sides of police and intelligence work?
What do you actually know about this guy, his contacts in Iran or in the US? For all we know he lives in the middle of nowhere and has been 'profiled' by some backwoods law-enforcement agency as the only young male 'middle eastern' type person within hundreds of miles? You are *probably* right, but actually we don't know. There might be elements of truth mixed in with his paranoia, but how are we able to tell which is which? Using 'logic' and 'evidence' we can't. All we can say is that we don't know what experiences and interactions he has had, but that we find the explanations and conclusions offered don't follow from and go beyond the evidence he has described and are implausible. We can't say nothing has happened, that he has had no contact with any government agency at any time and so forth.
You say that things are "not real" and mention an "inability to be logical about it", but in fact his experiences are "real" in that they are "real" experiences even if he is drawing the wrong conclusions about other people and the world from these experiences. It is also not quite right to talk about a lack of logic since it is "logical" to assume that if you hear a sound then that sound exists (for example) - under normal circumstances. If someone can provide evidence that it is an aural hallucination then logic allows you to draw different conclusions, but nooone has 'proved' this yet. What is 'logical' often merges with what is 'plausible', and this often rests on what 'feels' plausible, which is also linked to what someone has personally experienced. There is not the rigid dividing line that you are claiming.
In any case (and leaving aside our lack of information) using 'logic' to talk someone round from feeling an intense emotion is limited in the same way as using 'logic' when someone is extremely upset about a breavement or break-up, or when someone is out of it on drugs. Yes it might have some use but it is limited. Dealing with the emotions involved, offering actual concrete support (rather than contesting their experiences) and suggesting in terms they can accept how to sort out their problems - including identifying things you can both agree on specifically 'problems' and the solutions to these.
Badger Kitten
oof
I wasn't actually, and of course I know it happens - it happens to one of my friends, regularly - if you read my post you will see what I wrote - about Farsi-speaking spies following him in order to look at him funnily. That is not congruent with logic, for the reasons I explained. I have no problem believing that he might well get askance looks, law officer hassle ( like my Muslim friend whose brother is in Belmarsh for terror offences) - but not by white CIA American Farsi speakers who do nothing but look at him and speak Farsi to him. That is where the logic needs to be applied.
You can also see, again, if you read my post, that I am not denying that his feelings are real. Look.
me said:
It is quite possible to recognise someones intense feelings and honour them as real, which I have done, whilst appealing to their sense of logic as well as their sense of fear. As an ex PTSD sufferer I do have some awareness of how to manage crippling fear, auditory hallucinations, night terrors and sense of paranoia. Thanks.
Wow, that told me!I wouldn't bother, BK.
float regularly argues badly with people, apparently for the fun of it
Great "argument" there and of course you made that comment for obviously altruistic reasons.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
S/he was trying to, but not really up to dealing with the brief one liner responses. I wonder how they'll feel about essays.
Badger Kitten
oof
They seem to have coped with longer responses on the many, many other threads about it all over the internet. Interestingly, even the sign offs are the same
Are you talking about _float_ or the OP here? My comment was aimed at _float_.
Badger Kitten
oof
I just read the whole Above Top Secret forum discussion (pages of it)
and then started reading more of it elsewhere
There's loads of this stuff all over the internet, and now you've got whole forums of people reinforcing each other's beliefs.
Maybe it helps them. Maybe it doesn't.
I'm not sure the OP will be back. He engaged a lot of the OTS boards, wrote some very long posts but we've said nothing to him that other people on other boards haven't said endlessly before: he is looking for reinforcement, and only reinforcement as far as I can see.
and then started reading more of it elsewhere
There's loads of this stuff all over the internet, and now you've got whole forums of people reinforcing each other's beliefs.
Maybe it helps them. Maybe it doesn't.
I'm not sure the OP will be back. He engaged a lot of the OTS boards, wrote some very long posts but we've said nothing to him that other people on other boards haven't said endlessly before: he is looking for reinforcement, and only reinforcement as far as I can see.
Badger Kitten
oof
http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/v/intro.htm#aaron
http://www.gangstalkingworld.com/United/index.php/Main/Stories
http://www.freewebs.com/imandrewmurphy/
There's tons of people feeling like they have been gang stalked, mind controlled, electronically surveilled, all over the internet.
Badger Kitten
oof
Anyway.
QuestForFreedom's story is that his 'unique theory' on 9/11 - which is that Osama Bin Laden planned 9/11 in order to draw the US into a war with Iran - caused the surveillance and harassment/torture.
It's a sad tale of a young man feeling paranoid in a post 9/11 world.
I'm not especially convinced any more that he is a Muslim, he thinks Insha' Allah is spelt 'Eschala', for starters.
QuestForFreedom's story is that his 'unique theory' on 9/11 - which is that Osama Bin Laden planned 9/11 in order to draw the US into a war with Iran - caused the surveillance and harassment/torture.
It's a sad tale of a young man feeling paranoid in a post 9/11 world.
I'm not especially convinced any more that he is a Muslim, he thinks Insha' Allah is spelt 'Eschala', for starters.
Badger Kitten
oof
That's what's happened on the other forum threads I read.
It goes round and round in circles, the OP dismisses every offer of help, and is only interested in validation/attention/reinforcement. Either way, the internet is not the place to get the help he says he wants. On most other boards the thread has ended up deleted or locked.
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