Churches to run prisons

[Fullyplumped]

The Church of Scotland is thinking about bidding to run its own prisons on behalf of the state, according to the Herald today.

Kirk managers would run specialist prison wings or remand units on behalf of the state, according to proposals in a report being sent to the church's general assembly in May which seeks to change public opinions on crime and punishment.

A major influence on the planning is the Very Rev Andrew McLellan, a former Kirk moderator and now Scotland's chief inspector of prisons, who has voiced increasing frustration that jail conditions are unacceptable.

He said there was a need to create much smaller prisons, similar to Scandinavia, where the average number of inmates is below 100. Scottish prisons, mostly Victorian, retain that era's commitment to jails more than seven times the size.​

Why not? They think they could run prisons, or at least wings and special units, better than the state or private contractors, why shouldn't they have a go?

Do any readers here have experience of this in other countries, such as the Netherlands, where apparently this has already happened?

 

[dylanredefined]

crufixion all round then

 

[TAE]

My initial reaction is that it would take away a certain neutrality that the church has in some respects.

And the more I think about it ... bad idea ... very bad idea ... it's not what the church should be doing.

The church should never ever be an agent of the state.

 

[snorbury]

i should think they would be good at treating people like sheep

 

[Fullyplumped]

My own first reaction was that we would end up having have protestant prisons and catholic prisons. Imagine being an orangeman locked up in a jail with a madonna on the front gate! Might be a better deterrent for some crims, right enough.

Seriously, though I suspect that they might take rehabilitation more seriously than the state and the private sector do. Certainly the present arrangements aren't working.

 

[untethered]

I don't think prisons should be in private hands, even well-meaning ones.

 

[subversplat]

I would like the forgiveness and turning of cheeks should I get sent to prison

Also the wine sounds nice.

 

[quimcunx]

What makes them think they could magic the money needed to have smaller prisons etc. How would they respect people's non-kirky beliefs. Maybe they would do a better job but not sure the church should be running businesses.

 

[derf]

come and join us, come and join us

Sing along every one

 

[agricola]

what an offensively bad idea that is.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

hahahahahaha

what

it's real?

 

[Aldebaran]

Do any readers here have experience of this in other countries, such as the Netherlands, where apparently this has already happened?

?

I never heard of it that this "has already happened" in The Netherlands as I would see it impossible under the Dutch juridicial system.

salaam.

 

[Fullyplumped]

? I never heard of it that this "has already happened" in The Netherlands as I would see it impossible under the Dutch juridicial system. salaam.

Well, the newspaper story cites the Chief Inspector of Prisons, a former Moderator of the Church of Scotland, as referring to this being an idea imported from the Netherlands.

Dr McLellan also backs the import of an idea from the Netherlands which would see churches and other voluntary groups running jails for less dangerous inmates.​

Unfortunately the report to the General Assembly isn't posted on the Church's website. The story was the main headline in the paper so hopefully a debate will emerge.

Aldebaran, why would it be impossible in the Netherlands? Is there a constitutional barrier? The Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church are significant players in the social care business here, and there are real tensions around equal access to services where public funding is concerned.

 

[shagnasty]

dearly beloved you are in to do you time amen .no i think its a mistake the kirk getting involved directly they should act as a pressure group to insure conditions and treament of inmates is up to standard.its the same with charities they have gone down a lot in my esstimation being involved in government schemes turning some into very profitable concerns

 

[Tom A]

Oh great, become a born-again Xtian and get a few years knocked off your sentence, bloody brilliant idea that!

 

[Fez909]

Maybe it's related to the declining influence of the church in Scotland as evidenced by the declaration that Scotland is now 'pagan'.

source

 

[shagnasty]

Maybe it's related to the declining influence of the church in Scotland as evidenced by the declaration that Scotland is now 'pagan'.

source

would have thought the figures for england are much the same

 

[maomao]

I would like the forgiveness and turning of cheeks should I get sent to prison

Also the wine sounds nice.

It's the church of Scotland. The most miserable joyless bastards going. I don't think there'll be wine.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The Church of Scotland is thinking about bidding to run its own prisons on behalf of the state, according to the Herald today.

Kirk managers would run specialist prison wings or remand units on behalf of the state, according to proposals in a report being sent to the church's general assembly in May which seeks to change public opinions on crime and punishment.

A major influence on the planning is the Very Rev Andrew McLellan, a former Kirk moderator and now Scotland's chief inspector of prisons, who has voiced increasing frustration that jail conditions are unacceptable.

He said there was a need to create much smaller prisons, similar to Scandinavia, where the average number of inmates is below 100. Scottish prisons, mostly Victorian, retain that era's commitment to jails more than seven times the size.​

Why not? They think they could run prisons, or at least wings and special units, better than the state or private contractors, why shouldn't they have a go?

Do any readers here have experience of this in other countries, such as the Netherlands, where apparently this has already happened?

They're certainly not the Anglicans, are they?

If you run a prison, you have to have big guards who can hold people down or beat them if necessary. You might have to have lockdowns. You will be performing cavity searches. While the churchmen themselves won't be in there with the rubber gloves, I assume, they'll hire agents to do it.

That doesn't seem like something a church should be involved in.

 

[Fez909]

They're certainly not the Anglicans, are they?

If you run a prison, you have to have big guards who can hold people down or beat them if necessary. You might have to have lockdowns. You will be performing cavity searches. While the churchmen themselves won't be in there with the rubber gloves, I assume, they'll hire agents to do it.

That doesn't seem like something a church should be involved in.

The church of old was capable of all that. Maybe they still are, and they're just itching to get their hands on some sinners.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Given all the sex scandals involving churchmen and young boys, etc, I think the authorities should think twice before giving the churchmen first truncheons, then a bunch of men locked up in cages.

 

[nightbreed]

What makes them think they could magic the money needed to have smaller prisons etc. How would they respect people's non-kirky beliefs. Maybe they would do a better job but not sure the church should be running businesses.

Well churches do fuck all else. The CofE has so much land and property not being used and they certainly arent short of money. I would draw the line though at the catholic church running borstals/young offenders institutions

 

[Soul On Ice]

I originally read the the of the thread as "Prisons to run churches" which is on ly a marginally more ridiculous idea than the actual title of the thread.

 

[Aldebaran]

Aldebaran, why would it be impossible in the Netherlands? Is there a constitutional barrier?

I don't hold a degree in Dutch Law (I do for Belgian Law) but I would think obvious that there is a legal barrier to it in any nation operating under secular law system.

salaam.

 

[TAE]

no i think its a mistake the kirk getting involved directly they should act as a pressure group to insure conditions and treament of inmates is up to standard.

Indeed.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I don't hold a degree in Dutch Law (I do for Belgian Law) but I would think obvious that there is a legal barrier to it in any nation operating under secular law system.

salaam.

Churches operate some hospitals here.

 

[Jonti]

That's more like it!

Mind you, the churches here used not only to run prisons, but even held trials and sent people to jail. The Clink (really) in London, not far from the reconstructed Globe Theatre of Shakespearean fame, was owned by the Bishop of Winchester.

This from the BBC, here.

In 1584 Puritans planned to overthrow the church, Elizabeth found out and ordered that the harshest treatments of the (Clink) prison be given, and scores of Puritans were starved to death. Some of those that survived later travelled in The Mayflower to America in 1620.

 

[Fullyplumped]

Well the Labour-Lib Dem Scottish Executive aren't impressed, although the SNP - who think they're going to win the election in May - are all in favour.

Kenny MacAskill, the SNP justice spokesman, said the Church could help instill an ethos which would always elude the state.

"I think it's to be welcomed. Clearly there has been a great deal of involvement by churches in pastoral care, and I think all those in civic society, whether religious or secular, need to assist in tackling social problems.

"I would fully welcome (the Kirk) and anything they can do over and above what they're currently doing is to be appreciated."​

I wouldn't mind seeing them getting into things like bail hostels and remand facilities on an experimental basis, I have to say. Dunno what happens in NL but there is no legal barrier to the Church of Scotland and the RC church doing this. It would just be an extension of their care home businesses, actually!