Chronicles of Narnia - I really, really want to see this

[Dubversion]

michael moorcock

LOL

care to clarify the LOL?

you might be about to make yourself look really stupid..

 

[onenameshelley]

when i read them - as a kid - the christian stuff pissed me off. ok, that's just me, but i was a kid so surely my viewpoint is just as valid?

Yes your view is as valid as anyone elses, thats not my issue with this thread. I am just saying that "most" of the kids who and go and see this film/read the book wont give a monkeys about what faith this story is they will just be interested in a magical world where they can escape for a while, isnt that the point of kids stories?

 

[Dubversion]

Yes your view is as valid as anyone elses, thats not my issue with this thread. I am just saying that "most" of the kids who and go and see this film/read the book wont give a monkeys about what faith this story is they will just be interested in a magical world where they can escape for a while, isnt that the point of kids stories?

but that's my issue with it. it's Christianity by the back door, it's selling Christianity in disguise and i don't like that one bit.

 

[foo]

when i read them - as a kid - the christian stuff pissed me off. ok, that's just me, but i was a kid so surely my viewpoint is just as valid?

you were (are?? ) cleverer than me then.

i loved these books when i was a youngster. i adored the idea of going in to something as ordinary as a wardrobe, and entering another world, it enchanted me. daft though it may be seen now. i even used to walk into my parents wardrobe and wish with my whole being that i could do the same.

i was obviously fanciful, as well as a bit thick.

i don't remember Aslan much, so maybe even then i was hiding from the idea of god.

edit: i probably won't go to see the film though.

 

[Belushi]

i even used to walk into my parents wardrobe and wish with my whole being that i could do the same.

Theres gonna be kids all over the country doing that for the next few months

 

[Dubversion]

Moorcock responding to a query about his critique of Lewis

"I'm afraid I haven't been kind to Lewis in my book Wizardry and Wild Romance, but I'm not kind to Tolkien, either. I found his space fiction as badly written as his childrens' fiction and pulsing with propaganda. ... Both had their own personal charm, but I very much disliked their preaching. I don't mind people offering me their individual ideas, but I don't like an entire orthodox value system being promoted, whether it be communism or Anglo-Catholicism. Poor old buffers couldn't help themselves, really, but there it is, there's enough sentimentality in the mix to make it work. Sorry to answer a bit negatively. My models for English fantasy when I was growing up were T.H.White and Mervyn Peake. Peake saw himself as breaking windows, letting in fresh air. Can you imagine Lewis speaking with such violent relish for his art ? Lewis and Tolkien had not at that time achieved their prominence and were one of several options. Theirs seemed so conventional and coercive that I automatically backed away. They probably don't seem so bad now, but to me it was the voice of BBC Children's Hour, secretly designed to send you off to bed like good children. Well, one sniff of manipulation, and I'm inclined to tell my feet to do their stuff, or else I reach for the Black Sword.

 

[tastebud]

Anyway, what was this thread about again? Oh yeah...

Don't worry Jodal. I'm *allowed* to be mean to Dub. Whenever I see fit TBH. It's the 'rules'.

 

[Dubversion]

i assume louloubelle has gone to google up some more deeply held opinions.

 

[onenameshelley]

but that's my issue with it. it's Christianity by the back door, it's selling Christianity in disguise and i don't like that one bit.

Well if thats how you see it thats how you see it, i didnt see it like that as a child i saw it as an escape from normal boring life then again i was brought up a christian so maybe thats why i didnt notice it.


Can you not be persuaded by the talking lion?? Gwaaan its a talking lion Roooooaaaaaarrrrr

 

[onenameshelley]

Theres gonna be kids all over the country doing that for the next few months

see and thats the point, kids being kids before they are dragged up into a world thats frankly at times a bit scary and poo.

 

[Dubversion]

see and thats the point, kids being kids before they are dragged up into a world thats frankly at times a bit scary and poo.

but i honestly think the Narnia books - even more than Tolkein - ADD to the scary poohiness. they don't encourage kids to think freely, they reinforce ortodoxy.

 

[Louloubelle]

Moorcock responding to a query about his critique of Lewis

I've read moorock's objections to pornography and that was enough to deter me from taking his views on anything very much very seriously

I also read a couple of his fantasy books as a kid, checking them again as a young adult I was very unimpressed.

That a writer like moorcock gets off on slagging off CS lewis doesn't really surprise me

 

[Fruitloop]

CS lewis was an atheist in his early adulthood and rejected a lot of xtain dogma throught his life

his interest in xtianity was spaarked through reading george macdonald's novels.

macdonald was himself far from an orthdox xtian, he rejected the concept of hell and of sin and was himself into the kabalah and studied mythology.

If, like me, you;ve read Jung and Macdonald extensively you'll come to the conclusion that Jung lifted a lot of his theories, including that of The Shadow, from Macdonald.

Given that Lewis was heavily influenced by macdonald I think it's unsurprising that lewis's stepson claims that the LTWAYW was iunfluenced by the myt of the dying and resurected god, itself something that Jung wrote extensively about

C.S. Lewis believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ, which in my book makes you a Christian. The same goes for Macdonald, as far as I'm aware (although I must confess to having read much less Macdonald than Lewis). In any case, heretical opinions seem to be pretty much par for the course with Christianity, and Macdonald's idiolectic version of the religion isn't really notable for the originality of its heresy, compared to Marcionism or Ringatu.

Lewis is supposed to have commented that the C of N originated when he wondered what it would be like if Jesus Christ was incarnated on another world or planet to save the souls of those inhabitants, which sounds suspiciously like a Christian subtext to me.

 

[Belushi]

You can now choose your favourite chronicle on my Aslantastic new Narnia poll

 

[tastebud]

they don't encourage kids to think freely

Now that really is bollocks.

 

[belboid]

Yes your view is as valid as anyone elses, thats not my issue with this thread. I am just saying that "most" of the kids who and go and see this film/read the book wont give a monkeys about what faith this story is they will just be interested in a magical world where they can escape for a while, isnt that the point of kids stories?

so subtext is entirely unimportant, and has no influence or impact?

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

It must be 20+ since I last read the books but I do remember them being more overtly Christian than that. For example Aslan isn't a god, he's the son of God ('The Emperor-Over-The-Sea) and dont they encounter Aslan as a lamb at one point (in Prince Caspian I think).

I have to agree. And the ending of the Last Battle is quite gratuitous.

Although I did like the books as a kid, I always thought LOTR was way cooler. i know Tolkien was a Christian too, but the Christian elements of LOTR are really pretty subtle, and in fact barely there at all. The book seems far more pagan to me.

 

[jodal]

Can you not be persuaded by the talking lion?? Gwaaan its a talking lion Roooooaaaaaarrrrr

Aslan is the bollox in the new film.

 

[Dubversion]

I also read a couple of his fantasy books as a kid, checking them again as a young adult I was very unimpressed.

That a writer like moorcock gets off on slagging off CS lewis doesn't really surprise me

I think most of Moorcock's books are fucking bobbins, but if you'd have googled a little more comprehensively you'd realise that alongside his deliberately 'pulp fantasy work' there is more serious, highly regarded stuff like London Bones, Mother London etc.

if i had to choose a more reliable commentator on Lewis between an acclaimed writer and thinker and someone who saw an interview with CS Lewis' stepson and then googled some other crap, i think i know where i'd place my trust.

 

[Louloubelle]

louloubelle - do you really think that quite a few of us didn't realise long ago that without your beloved google, you'd be nothing?

it's so fucking transparent, you know..

I could take that as a compliment

If you had read Lilith you would see that the theme of the Shadow runs through the entire story which predates Jung's concept of The Shadow by decades.

there are many themes in Jung's writings that are taken from MacDonald, especially Lilith.


AFAIK nobody else has noticed this, there is no refernce to it anywhere on the web

 

[Dubversion]

Now that really is bollocks.

care to expand?

 

[Dubversion]

I could take that as a compliment

i shouldn't if i were you.

If you had read Lilith you would see that the theme of the Shadow runs through the entire story which predates Jung's concept of The Shadow by decades.

there are many themes in Jung's writings that are taken from MacDonald, especially Lilith.

i haven't. and we're talking about Lewis. why aren't you responding to the other posters echoing my points?

AFAIK nobody else has noticed this, there is no refernce to it anywhere on the web

well done. have a biscuit.

 

[onenameshelley]

but i honestly think the Narnia books - even more than Tolkein - ADD to the scary poohiness. they don't encourage kids to think freely, they reinforce ortodoxy.

i think you were a very smart child Dub because most of my friends kids (ranging from 3-9) wouldnt see it like you do/did, they just see a magical story. I didnt see it like you did either babes, i was more like foo, sat in a wardrobe with a flashlight trying to work out why my shity mfi wardrobe wasnt letting into Narnia But then again i was a simple child and stories were just that, they didnt have some greater deeper hidden meaning.

*preys she has a simple child*

 

[Fruitloop]

but i honestly think the Narnia books - even more than Tolkein - ADD to the scary poohiness. they don't encourage kids to think freely, they reinforce ortodoxy.

Are you punning on the Moorcock essay 'Epic Pooh'? If so, I take my hat of to you, sir.

 

[belboid]

I think most of Moorcock's books are fucking bobbins, but if you'd have googled a little more comprehensively you'd realise that alongside his deliberately 'pulp fantasy work' there is more serious, highly regarded stuff like London Bones, Mother London etc.

if i had to choose a more reliable commentator on Lewis between an acclaimed writer and thinker and someone who saw an interview with CS Lewis' stepson and then googled some other crap, i think i know where i'd place my trust.

must admit, I thought Mother London was bollocks too

However, as a historiographer of Science Fiction & Fantasy he is very probably regarded as the number one living in the UK, if not the world.

 

[Dubversion]

must admit, I thought Mother London was bollocks too

i didn't enjoy it much, but that's not the point

However, as a historiographer of Science Fiction & Fantasy he is very probably regarded as the number one living in the UK, if not the world.

no, apparently that's now Louloubelle.

 

[Dubversion]

But then again i was a simple child and stories were just that, they didnt have some greater deeper hidden meaning.

but they DO, shells. they ALL do. Fairy tales, nursery rhymes, kids stories, they ALL have a greater deeper hidden meaning. which is fine, but it just means people should be free to expose and criticise those meanings.

 

[onenameshelley]

Aslan is the bollox in the new film.

cool

 

[Louloubelle]

I think most of Moorcock's books are fucking bobbins,

me too

but if you'd have googled a little more comprehensively

you'd realise that alongside his deliberately 'pulp fantasy work' there is more serious, highly regarded stuff like London Bones, Mother London etc.

I haven't read these books

his discourse on porn and his crap fantasy novels has put me off reading any of his other works

if i had to choose a more reliable commentator on Lewis between an acclaimed writer and thinker and someone who saw an interview with CS Lewis' stepson and then googled some other crap, i think i know where i'd place my trust.

I didn't google any links on this thread

I've posted all of them before, due to my enthusiasm fort he works of George macDonald

I bet you didin't even see the interview with douglas gresham but you're still slaggin off his POV

I give up

 

[pootle]

Slightly OT but what does passive aggressive mean? Someone said I was it once. Am I?