Chris Tremlett OR Andy Caddick? - The Poll!

[steeplejack]

That reminds me- Butcher captained England for one test in 1999 vs NZ- a dreadful snorefest draw in Manchester IIRC. So a 'mixed race' player has captained England.

It'd be interesting to have an answer to JTGs question.

Otherwise, the MCC numbers large amounts of reactionary old farts amongst it's membership. Hold the front fucking page.

 

[steeplejack]

You are clearly tripping. Class plays a MASSIVE role in cricket.

Look at those names you have mentioned, Harmison, Hoggard, Jones, Collingwood.... they are all bowlers. The batsman-upper&middle class and bowling-working class divide is as alive today as it was in the bodyline series. Only a fool could miss that.

Be sure to try and run this pish past the members of cricket clubs across Co. Durham where I was at the weekend.

I'll come and visit you in hospital afterwards.

 

[JTG]

Marcus Trescothick - is he middle class?

 

[JTG]

What about the m/c credentials of former captains Ray Illingworth, Ian Botham and Graham Gooch?

I never really saw DeFreitas, Malcolm, Lewis or Headley as captaincy material but maybe DUAF did.

BTW, as regards Surrey - Butcher, Thorpe and Stewart made the side on merit but Clarke, Ormond, Ward et al were included as part of the contractual obligation to include all Surrey players in the line up at least once.

 

[Leon]

Get your facts right - James Ormond played for England when he was at Leicestershire, not Surrey.

And Clarke and Ward played for England because they kicked arse in county cricket not because they play for Surrey.

 

[JTG]

So why so many average Surrey players in the England side down the years as opposed to somewhat better players from, say, Northants or Gloucestershire?

 

[Leon]

Probably because there haven't been any Glous/Northants players who've been good enough.

Name someone who was "somewhat better" than an average Surrey player and got overlooked.

And don't say Mark Alleyne - oh please. Alleyne bowling his little dobbers to Matty Hayden or Adam Gilchrist, it would be a massacre.

He was a good county player but would get hammered in Test cricket.

 

[DrRingDing]

Right. So, er, name a black man who should have captained England then.

rascist!!!

 

[Flashman]

rascist!!!

 

[Leon]

Don't think JTG was being rascist at all. Sadly he may be right, I for one can't think of a black player who should have captained the Test side.

That's not because they're black, obviously, just no one has emerged yet - but it will happen.

The fact that no one has emerged may be due to racism in the system, but that is another question.

Mark Alleyne would have been a good captain for the one day side but I don't reckon he was a good enough all rounder to command a regular place in the side. And certainly not in Test cricket.

If you think there are players who should have made it but didn't then name them - don't just have a go.

 

[DrRingDing]

Marcus Trescothick - is he middle class?

Fuck knows but 'Marcus' certainly says middle class to me.

 

[DrRingDing]

I never really saw DeFreitas, Malcolm, Lewis or Headley as captaincy material but maybe DUAF did.

What do all these players have in common?

They are bowlers. Is this a coincidence? I don't think so.

The lower classes and people of different races are kept away from the prestigious bat.

 

[steeplejack]

You're not very good at this, are you?

 

[maomao]

The lower classes and people of different races are kept away from the prestigious bat.

Surely you mean the upper classes are kept away from the dirty ball. All bowlers have to bat youknow. Do you know the rules.

 

[DrRingDing]

You're not very good at this, are you?

I'm still waiting for a working class and/or black captain.

Nasser Hussein counts as neither my old chestnut.

 

[DrRingDing]

Surely you mean the upper classes are kept away from the dirty ball. All bowlers have to bat youknow. Do you know the rules.

Leave the pedantry to Pickmans maomao

 

[steeplejack]

It's already been said that there has never been a black captain.

You have been provided with examples of 'working class captains'.

It is still pretty unclear what point you're trying to make, if any.

 

[Leon]

I'm still waiting for a working class and/or black captain.

Do you not read the replies to your posts?


As far as I can remember, there hasn't been a black player good enough to captain the side yet. That is not racist - it is a fact.

If you look down the years there haven't actually been that many black players sure enough of their place to be considered. Mark Butcher probably came the closest, after that there's no one.

So if you have an example of a black player overlooked for the captaincy in the last 10/15 years on the basis of race then say so.

If not, then shut up and admit you're wrong.

And the class division between batsmen and bowlers may be an interesting observation but it is hardly systematic.

 

[DrRingDing]

Alec Stewart was hardly a posho, either.

Alec Stewart is aristocracy as far as the cricket world is concerned. If your familiar with his father.

 

[DrRingDing]

Botham was w-c.

..and look at what he had to do to get the top job!

Not to mention how long he lasted in it.

 

[DrRingDing]

I never really saw DeFreitas, Malcolm, Lewis or Headley as captaincy material

Why not?

Serious question.

 

[steeplejack]

You're trolling. Badly.

 

[DrRingDing]

You're trolling. Badly.

Boo Hiss!

 

[JTG]

Marcus is pretty common for working class boys from this neck of the woods. See also footballers Marcus Stewart and Marcus Browning, both local w/c lads from Bristol of a similar age to Trescothick.

Botham lasted hardly any time in the job 'cos he wasn't very good at it.

Lewis and DeFreitas were more yer bowling all rounders than out and out bowlers.

Any more stupid comments?

 

[DrRingDing]

Lewis and DeFreitas were more yer bowling all rounders than out and out bowlers.

You don't remember Daffy's batting do you?

His average was 14 hardly an allrounder even by the standards of england then.

 

[JTG]

You're telling me that a man with ten first class centuries couldn't bat?

 

[DrRingDing]

You're telling me that a man with ten first class centuries couldn't bat?

We're talking about playing for England and Wales here my old mucker, try again.

 

[Flashman]

We're talking about playing for England and Wales here my old mucker, try again.

Well he is black, which seems to be your main criteria for being captain of England.

incidentally, he used to get his hair cut at the top of my street when he played for Derbyshire, top fella.

 

[Leon]

Daffy could bat - he may have had an average of 14 but he played some well important innings.

Just remember... he was one of the "New Bothams".

 

[JTG]

Daffy could bat - he may have had an average of 14 but he played some well important innings.

Just remember... he was one of the "New Bothams".

Could we get a definitive list together of all the New Bothams?

I think Derek Pringle was the first. Followed by Daffy, Chris Lewis, Darren Gough...

Any others (apart from Fred of course).