Choosing a side

[In Bloom]

What do you see as the other tactics they could have used?

Arguably, they'd be better off not launching rockets that are pretty much guaranteed to hit civllian targets, even if they replaced that particular tactic with nothing whatsoever. The rocket attacks do not harm the Israeli state, they do not weaken it's military nor will more rockets force the IDF to withdraw.

Viewed realistically, the rockets are an expression of frustration and impotence, not resistance to imperialism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

...and the Israelis are only attacking because of Hamas's strategy, yes?

No.
Perhaps a little engagement with the political history of the state of Israel would shine a little light on why "the Israelis" would still be attacking even if HAMAS didn't exist.
You could start with the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian villages in 1948 that precipitated the 1948 war, and work on from there.

If you actually gave a fuck, which I suspect that you don't.

I think people just support the underdog as a kneejerk reaction, I honestly can't see how one side is noticeably better than the other... although I know damn well I'd rather live under an Israeli government than anything the Palestinians could plausibly cook up.

How do you know that?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Having caught my breath from the last post the next thing that got my goat was this article in the Times

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5505390.ece

It wasn't that people were gathering to watch the violence, I don't like it and wouldn't do it myself, but it's understandable. The picture shows a bunch of Orthodox Jews there to gloat though. These fuckers are exempt from military service in Israel, why should they think they have the right to do that. I can understand people who have previous served being interested (I'd hate them if they were gloating though), at least they would understand the situation more, but these chickenhawk cunts really piss me off

Breathe again...

You need to bear in mind that the state of Israel plays politics with the issue. They believe that it adds a fillip to their claims to democracy that they don't expect the orthodox Judaists to serve their state, the quid pro quo being that the orthodox can be relied upon to vote on the right of the political divide every single bloody time.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I have a feeling that Israel's propaganda techniques may be studied in years to come for advertising campaigns etc, in much the same way that the Nazis' propaganda was and still is...

Goebbels and his minions unfortunately had a grasp of subtlety that made some of their propaganda plausible. The state of Israel's propagandists thankfully lack most of that subtlety.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Arguably, they'd be better off not launching rockets that are pretty much guaranteed to hit civllian targets, even if they replaced that particular tactic with nothing whatsoever. The rocket attacks do not harm the Israeli state, they do not weaken it's military nor will more rockets force the IDF to withdraw.

Viewed realistically, the rockets are an expression of frustration and impotence, not resistance to imperialism.

Thing is, they're launching rockets that are pretty much guaranteed to hardly ever hit any target, unless they're targeting desert scrub.

 

[In Bloom]

Thing is, they're launching rockets that are pretty much guaranteed to hardly ever hit any target, unless they're targeting desert scrub.

Fair point, which kind of reinforces my point, really. The rocket attacks are worse than doing nothing at all, even if they are an understandable reaction to the brutality of the Israeli state's actions.

 

[Spion]

The rocket attacks are worse than doing nothing at all, even if they are an understandable reaction to the brutality of the Israeli state's actions.

A question occurred to me recently = how much the world know about the blockade of Gaza and Israel's ability to carry out targetted assassinations at will if rockets were never fired?

 

[agricola]

Fair point, which kind of reinforces my point, really. The rocket attacks are worse than doing nothing at all, even if they are an understandable reaction to the brutality of the Israeli state's actions.

The Israelis have vastly inflated the importance of the rockets though, making them (or rather, the firing of them) the main justification for the whole antenatal-clinic busting campaign.

Every time Hamas (or Islamic Jihad, or Fatah) manage to fire one off it is, in a mad kind of way, a demonstration that they are not beaten and that the IDF has not yet won.

 

[frogwoman]

Goebbels and his minions unfortunately had a grasp of subtlety that made some of their propaganda plausible. The state of Israel's propagandists thankfully lack most of that subtlety.

it's not so much what they say though, it's the organisation of the whole thing and the pressure on media organisations to show "balance", the constant phone calls, mass emails etc ...

 

[In Bloom]

A question occurred to me recently = how much the world know about the blockade of Gaza and Israel's ability to carry out targetted assassinations at will if rockets were never fired?

And what good as "the world" knowing done? As if Livni gives a fuck what the rest of the world thinks.

 

[hipipol]

Yes, they could only play one chord remember, and I don't want to say how they plucked it.

But never mind zionism because they have won so far, I think. Really whatever happens now should be worked out from where we are.

Well first off we should offer our Polaris submarines to Iran - perhaps if thet are tooled up, Israel wont attack them - they seem to have a liking for attacking those unable to defend themselves

 

[Spion]

The rocket attacks are worse than doing nothing at all

Why are they? Why on earth would doing nothing be better?

 

[In Bloom]

Why are they? Why on earth would doing nothing be better?

What would be a better response to Israel's attacks on Gaza, driving a nail through your feet or doing nothing?

 

[hipipol]

What would be a better response to Israel's attacks on Gaza, driving a nail through your feet or doing nothing?

You think they should just accept slavery demurely then?

 

[Spion]

@Bloom

Silly arse, as if those are those the only two options.

I'm still waiting to hear why doing nothing would be better than firing rockets. So, tell me why that is. Or you could take it back because it was a daft thing to say and appear an arse for five minutes rather than forever

 

[dylanredefined]

You think they should just accept slavery demurely then?

No but firing rockets at people who will use it as an excuse to bomb your neighbour hood into little pieces then drive a tank through it just seems mad to me.

 

[Spion]

No but firing rockets at people who will use it as an excuse to bomb your neighbour hood into little pieces then drive a tank through it just seems mad to me.

Israel would still blockade Gaza and assassinate at will if no rocket had ever been fired.

 

[In Bloom]

@Bloom

Silly arse, as if those are those the only two options.

Well of course they aren't, but firing rockets semi-randomly over the border or doing nothing aren't the only options either.

I'm still waiting to hear why doing nothing would be better than firing rockets. So, tell me why that is. Or you could take it back because it was a daft thing to say and appear an arse for five minutes rather than forever

Doing nothing would be better because the only effects of firing rockets so far has been negative. It follows that if something fails to have a positive impact on your situation, and in fact has a negative impact on it, then you'd have been better off not doing it, no?

 

[In Bloom]

You think they should just accept slavery demurely then?

Did I say that?

 

[Spion]

Doing nothing would be better because the only effects of firing rockets so far has been negative.

Really, what negative effects have the rockets had then?

 

[dylanredefined]

Israel would still blockade Gaza and assassinate at will if no rocket had ever been fired.

Death in small doses or large doses some choice! Still think I'd rather chose a method to fight back that works If my family going to suffer an air raid rather it be for something more than a shattered paving stone .
I got shoot at by similar things in Iraq they achevied nothing apart from endangering the locals.So I have little respect for the rocket firers .The israels are going about this the wrong way.

 

[hipipol]

No but firing rockets at people who will use it as an excuse to bomb your neighbour hood into little pieces then drive a tank through it just seems mad to me.

And how can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his Gods?
Thomas B. Macaulay

He also said "Save us from the deeds of great men, for their actions are measured in the mountains of dead"

 

[dylanredefined]

Really, what negative effects have the rockets had then?

Well the idf has bombed the fuck out of gaza citing the rockets as an excuse.

 

[dylanredefined]

And how can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his Gods?
Thomas B. Macaulay

He also said "Save us from the deeds of great men, for thier actions are measured in the piles of dead"

Thats great if you want to make a glorious last stand don't think your neighbours might be to impressed.When your enemy takes them out as well as you.
Lets make it clear I dont support the Idf giving the palestians a kicking hasen't worked so kick them them harder seems an idiotic idea as firing a rocket at someone whose got a huge air force and just wants an excuse to bomb you .

 

[Spion]

Well the idf has bombed the fuck out of gaza citing the rockets as an excuse.

And if there weren't any rockets they'd have found another excuse. This offensive was planned months ago and has nothing to do with rockets

 

[hipipol]

Well the idf has bombed the fuck out of gaza citing the rockets as an excuse.

JUdging by the recent TV appearances of the Israel Govts spokemen and women, any excuse would have done really. Plus the rockets only restarted when Israel sent the special forces in to top some geezer - planned from the start really.

Instructive to read Guderian in Panzer Commnader about the pretext for the invasion of Poland - same lies, same trap

 

[In Bloom]

And how can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his Gods?
Thomas B. Macaulay

He also said "Save us from the deeds of great men, for their actions are measured in the mountains of dead"

What a horrible idea. If I have any say over it, I'm dying comfortably in my sleep at a ripe old age, not throwing my life away for something as meaningless and fleeting as Gods and ancestors.

 

[In Bloom]

Really, what negative effects have the rockets had then?

Dead civillians and an escalation of hostilities?

 

[Spion]

Dead civillians and an escalation of hostilities?

There were dead civilians on a regular basis anyway, and a deteriorating 'quality' of life from the effects of the blockade that made life unsustainable. So, die slowly or leave Gaza as a result of these two things is the In Bloom answer?

 

[In Bloom]

There were dead civilians on a regular basis anyway, and a deteriorating 'quality' of life from the effects of the blockade that made life unsustainable. So, die slowly or leave Gaza as a result of these two things is the In Bloom answer?

I don't have all the answers, and I've never pretended to. Though if you're going to throw your life away in a meaningless gesture, why not attack checkpoints or soldiers, instead of lobbing rockets in the general direction of Israel?