Children's TV from Hamas

[rachamim18]

Not a problem.

 

[Gmart]

Let's ask the Israelis. Oy, nasty Zionists, listen up. Does this sound like a good idea to you?

You think I don't know all this? And yet it is the only response. Your way (if I may call it that) is just permanent war. Anything is a better alternative to that, and with the UN organising the peace a la Balkans, why not? The deaths would be far fewer and seeing as that is apparently your priority I am at a loss as to why you would not support this plan at least in principle.

Sure the Jews have been oppressed for years but that time has gone. They have millions in Israel and they are in a position of power. They could create a nation which will be truly inclusive...

Sure! Lambast it as unrealistic if you feel it is, as you seem to, but on that we disagree.

I think it would be worth a try before your permanent war idea with no compromise gets us all killed. After all the US is well on side. The first whiff of trouble and the UN (supported by the US) could step in.

The Israelis need people with vision, not soldiers! People who recognise that the Jews have a home now and they need to catch up with the other nations and give equal rights to all with a progressive constitution etc.

Sure it'll be difficult in time but as good housing and job opportunities go to more and more Palestinians, the violent in their communities will be marginalised, because they will recognise that they are also gaining from the new nation.

If South Africa can do it then why can't you. There may well still be problems over there, but generally the former enemies are getting on with it. No one is suggesting that the Blacks should have been prevented from stepping up, the thought that the blacks would go around killing everybody is just ludicrous; yet this is the reasoning you give to maintain your position.

 

[Dhimmi]

There was a piece in Private Eye about two Arab TV stations having studios at Shepperton, I've tried to find the piece but failed, but it didn't make pretty reading.

As for "discrimination today," hatred of Jews and actions related to it including violence are on a steep rise in both the US and the UK< although the UK is far worse in that area. I should note that Jews from every demographic are targetted, not just Chassidic Jews.

The rise in the UK is tied to the European wide rise of the extreme right-wing, fuelled in part by the replacement of communist* rule by democracy*. There's been almost an elastic reaction, having been forced to adopt communism a lot of their citizens have snapped to the opposite extreme, despite the sufferings visited upon them by Nazi rule. Of course nazi rule was just a few years and slipping slowly from living memory, whereas soviet rule was decades and still well remembered.

One interesting but ultimately sad development is how the extreme right and the jihadists have become chums due to their number one enemy, Jews. Events such as the 2006 Iranian "Holocaust Conference" enjoyed speeches from people such as David Dukes (ex-KKK grand wizard), Fredrick Toben (founder of the Holocaust denial outfit the Adelaide Foundation) and Ali Akbar Mohtashamipour (Founder of Lebanese Hezbollah), and provided one of the few international platforms guaranteed to deliver a positive response to the words of these "researchers" under the guise of a serious academic conference and untroubled by troublesome protests nor inquisitive media.

A sadder development is seeing much of the far left starting to chase support from those who might support the jihadists. Over just a few years a vibrant and widely supported anti Iraq/Afghan war movement was reduced to encouraging one-way protests, where Israeli actions are seen as the work of the devil, similar Arab actions blessed by situation and protestors encouraged to wander the streets of London chanting "We are all Hezbollah". Effectively one of the biggest opportunities for race-free, class-free, religion-free, hence universal, peace protests washed down the drain.

How has this all come to be? I think the single most pertinent reason is how despite very obviously losing the military war The third Reich did win the race war. They successfully decimated european Jewish communities, and when the tide turned the widely implicated West moved the shop front for anti-semitism to the middle-east, effectively rebranding "The Jewish Problem" as "Somebody Else's Problem".

It's very similar, in my mind, to the American Colonization Society, and the foundation of the nation of Liberia. Which, although dressed as an opportunity for freed slaves to return to their motherland and other high-minded tosh, was an attempt by southern U.S. ex-slavers to rid themselves of feared free blacks, and northern U.S. industrialists to protect the livelihoods of white workers.

Now with regard to the middle-east we're reduced to taking sides, and egging on the killing of the opposite side with the occasional but shameful cheer. Having created the problem, and a whole series of problems leading up to it we're continuing to aggravate it while in a willful search for new problems to deliver upon other peoples. We've liberated camp victims, who continue to live in daily fear, and given them new neighbours who also live in daily fear.

We need to step back, and use our perspective and distance, both in time and space, to try to offer up a true solution beyond the moronic chants of "Destroy Israel" or "Nuke Iran". Until then the real shame lies just as much with us as those who we might accuse.

*Applying both these terms loosely for the political pedants.

 

[Spymaster]

If South Africa can do it then why can't you.

Comparisons with the M.E. and South Africa are misplaced.

Very few people could possibly disagree that the white S.A. regime was morally corrupt and that the land had been stolen from the blacks.

Whilst individual actions on both sides in the Middle East may be morally dubious the question of ownership of the land is nowhere near as clear cut.

 

[Gmart]

Comparisons with the M.E. and South Africa are misplaced.

Very few people could possibly disagree that the white S.A. regime was morally corrupt and that the land had been stolen from the blacks.

Whilst individual actions on both sides in the Middle East may be morally dubious the question of ownership of the land is nowhere near as clear cut.

Did the Blacks register their country with the relevant authorities?

No!

I suspect a case could easily be made if one wanted to...

And I also suspect that in the future the Israelis insistence that the Palestinians didn't register their country with the relevant authorities, will be similarly viewed as convenient bullsh*t.

They successfully decimated European Jewish communities, and when the tide turned the widely implicated West moved the shop front for antisemitism to the middle-east, effectively rebranding "The Jewish Problem" as "Somebody Else's Problem".

True, and they'd never have got away with it if it weren't for that pesky biblical prophesy of the Jews returning 'home'. It's amazing how gullible some people are.

We need to step back, and use our perspective and distance, both in time and space, to try to offer up a true solution beyond the moronic chants of "Destroy Israel" or "Nuke Iran". Until then the real shame lies just as much with us as those who we might accuse.

Very true, if only we were able to persuade both sides to compromise. Some just don't know the meaning of the word, ie actually giving ground, on both sides.

 

[T & P]

Comparisons with the M.E. and South Africa are misplaced.

Very few people could possibly disagree that the white S.A. regime was morally corrupt and that the land had been stolen from the blacks.

Whilst individual actions on both sides in the Middle East may be morally dubious the question of ownership of the land is nowhere near as clear cut.

Bollocks it isn't. One day an entire people who'd lived there for centuries if not millennia had owned their own land, even if ruled by foreign powers, and the next their land is given to a bunch of Europeans invited to move in, prompted by guilt from an unrelated war in Europe, and based on quasi-religious claims from two thousand years ago.

And two decades later, the armed forces of the newly created country take large chunks of what's left of the original inhabitants' land by force and illegally occupy it indefinitely, subjecting the locals to a catalogue of human right abuses and war crimes that would make many a brutal dictator blush.

Comparisons with Apartheid South Africa are fully justified. In fact I could think of another despicable regime, all too keen on persecuting entire peoples, stealing their land property, persecuting them, keeping them in ghettoes and drawing discriminatory laws against them, that has a striking resemblance to what Israel is doing.

It is all too ironic that this should be so, considering the very people committing such acts are the direct descendants of the people who suffered similar hardships at the hands of the other regime. I can only imagine millions of victims have been spinning in their graves in disgust for more than 4 decades at the appalling spectacle.

 

[Spymaster]

Bollocks it isn't. One day an entire people who'd lived there for centuries if not millennia had owned their own land, even if ruled by foreign powers, and the next their land is given to a bunch of Europeans invited to move in, prompted by guilt from an unrelated war in Europe, and based on quasi-religious claims from two thousand years ago.

This of course is your opinion. A zionist would question it's veracity.

 

[T & P]

How can you question facts?

Are the Palestinian people a figment of our imagination now?

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: "Because the US and UK Govts' both use MEMRI as a source (one of thousands) that means MEMRI is not to be trusted.": Uh, no. Govts.' also use sopurces from every conceivable angle. Just because something or soemone you do not agree with uses soemthing ti does not mean you yourself cannot trust it.

Governments aren't to be trusted either.

If Gordon Brown uses toilet paper does it mean you will use leaves? I mean, a tool (actual tool, not the derogatory label) is a tool, and regardless of who uses it, it retains its utility.

What rubbish.

 

[rachamim18]

G: "With the UN organising the Balkans, why not?": No offence but you got that one totally wrong. First, thank NATO, not the inept, totally surrupt, and wholly ineffective UN. Secondly, in the Mid-East, one need only look to the SInai Force, and now to UNIFIL in Lebanon.

Of the latter, just a reminder, a UNIFIL post not only did nothing to stop the kidnap and murder of 2 IDF (not the 7/12/06 incident), filiming it as it happened. UNIFIL actually aided and abetted the murderers! It was a UNIFIL auto with UN plates that kidnapped them!!!

UNIFIL has done nothing, EVER to impede the flow of arms to Hezbollah and AMAL in Lebanon, OR the cross border drug trade between Lebanon and ISrael, and Syria and Israel. What good are they at all?


"Yes, Jews were oppressed but that was in the past. They now have millions in Israel and have power.": First, Jews and Israel, believe it or not are 2 wholly separate issues. As you yourself pointed out just the other day, there are Jews who wholly oppose Israel. Curious then that you would use Israel as any part of your rationale as to just why Jews are now safer.

Even were all Jews to fully support Israel, Jews in the Diaspora would still be endangered. Indeed even more so because of opposition to Israel , its policies, and actions in some quarters. Anti-Jewish violence is rising throughout the world including the UK where the rise has been steep.

The only place in the world where Jews are not a minority is Israel. On top of that, it is the homeland of ALL ethnic Jews, as well as religious Jews including converts dating back to 3 generations or more. To exist anywhere else is a terrible thing. The Diaspora is a neccessity to Israel and the Jewish PEople but it is still evil .


"Israel should be an inclusive nation.": It is. Arabs make up roughly 20% of the overall population. Yet most Arabs are below voting age. The 12 Arab MKS in govt. more than make a just representation of voting age Israeli-Arabs. Only 1 of the 27 Arab entities has a single Jewish member of govt (Bahrain which has a Jewish Ambassador, female to boot). When you harp on "Jewish Character," on "inclusiveness," and so on you are deceiving yourself.

"The UN backed by the US could step in at the first whiff of trouble.":Uh, sounds good but the UN is totally worthless in peacetime , what makes you think it would be at all effective during strife? What did it do at Sinai? Lebanon? in Cyprus? to Kurds? Indonesia? Sudan? Chad? On and on and on...

You might feel confident to risk Israel and its People on the basis of the UN but then you are not living there. You do not have kids there. You do not have a home there. Your family is not there and/or buried there. I can make stock assmuptions on Colombia and the FARC but since I have no personal investment there it would be pompous and callous to make such recommendation. This is something that sadly escapes you.


"Israel does not need soldiers.": OK, thanks for letting us know. By the way, could you also send that message to the 7 Arab Nations still in a state of declared war with Israel as well as the 27 militant groups that have swore to annihilate Israel and exterminate its People. Thanks.

"Israel needs a progressive Constitution.": Um, did I not tell you that Israel has a Basic Law? Basic Law functions exactly as a Constitution. In it the rights of all races, creeds and religions is guranteed on every level. I would suggest, YET AGAIN, that you finally read it.

I will also remind you that Israel is rated NUMBER ONE for ALL of SW Asia in terms of Human Rights, Civil Rights, Quality of Life, and Standard of Living.It has held this rating for more than a couple of decades now. I think, AGAIN, you need to actually research the issues.

"As better housing and living conditions go to 'Palestinians' less and less will turn to terror. Terrorism will be marginalised.": Sigh...Do you listen to anything I tell you? How many times have I patiently told you that terrorism has absolutely nothing to do with economical issues and quality of life? Terrorism is tied to participation in a democratic political process. Notice how many Israeli-Arabs commit terrorism? Did that light bulb ever light up on that issue?

The Harvarad Study defined it pretty well but it has been known for along time. The numbers correlate strongly. Individuals find themselves frustrated with political marginalisation. Then you have ideology as the driving force, still not exocnomics. You think that giving each HAMAS and PIJ member a decent bank account that they will then foprget IEDs and Bomb Belts and instead concentrate on malls and shop - a - thons? No offence but this is so Western as to be hilarious.

You imagine that everyone thinks like you! All people are not ravenous consumers. Commericalism is insidious. What of the al Qadeh 9/11 Bobmers? How many were suffering economically? What of the Tube and Bus Bombers there in the UK? How many were on the dole? the Scottish Airport assasin?

If some are poor it is coincidence rather than the impetus behind the actions. Most however are well educated middle to upper call youth.

 

[rachamim18]

G Part II: "If S. Africa can do it, why can you not?": Well for starters, we are not S. Africa. Every region and nation/entity has its own individual dynamic. Asking your question is like asking, "If the Wright Brothers managed to fly a couple of hundred meters at Kitty Hawk," why could they not build an AWACs and fly to Japan?" It is apples and oranges.

S. Africa has a totally different history than Israel and surrounding lands. indeed if anything, Israel is like black S. Africans. Israel is a Jewish Nation. Jews are THE indigenous People of the land and region, Arabs migrants and invaders. Jews agreed to coexistence on less land than Arabs and yet Arabs wanted it all. Indeed, Afrikaners are frightenly like "Palestinians."

"The suggestion that S. African blacks would go around killing everyone is ludicrous...": Yes, it is. That is exactly why I never made the statement. I said THE ANC were TERRORISTS. The ANC neither consisted of all blacks nor did it represent all blacks.


Dhimmi: "The rise in anti-Jewish acts and violence is tied to the rise of "rightwing" groups and individuals. Yes, in part. Actually though, the majority are tied to the rise in "leftwing" ideology as well as the rise in Islam and Muslim immigrants.

The majority of cases in the metro Paris area, a particularly hard hit area are directly tied to N. African Muslims. Followers of such ideologues as the disgusting Jean Le Pen are NOT taking part in these heinous acts thus far so it is a mixed bag across the board.


"Ironic that the far right and Islamists have become friendly...": Yep, you hit it dead on. Le Pen is a great example. In fact, in light of my preceeding comment it just shows how Le Pen is being smart. Developing this tactical alliance it allows the rightists to keep their hands relatively clean as the Muslims get their own very dirty. Indeed, it is akin to Hitler entering into his tacit alliance with the Mufti and other Arab leders.

Hitler saw Arabs as sub human and yet entered into the allainces with the realisation that it was a neccessary, cheap, and very effective way in which to deal with his N. Africa push and its planned subsequent campaig to liquidate N. African and Mid-Eastern Jews.

I imagine that down the line the Arabs would have ended up as Judas Horrses. For thos eunfamiliar with that term, a Judas Horsde is a horse trained to head for the corral or enclosure and is let loose among a herd of wild or semi-wild stock. then when the Judas Horse is given the signal he runs for the pen and the others follow suit. Once he finished with us Hitler would have undoubtedly turned on the Arabs.

Wow Dhimmi! You even got the part about the left! I should have waited with my reply! Yep, you have mastered the dynamic.

What is frustrasting to me is to see people like amny U75ers functioning as tools for Arab hate mongers. Leftists like to imagine themselves as liberals fighting an unjust power. In reality they are propogating hate and like the rightists using Islamists, Islamists are using leftists.

It always made me curious...In Israel as many know, we have many ISM and other Internationalists. Yet, when they try and saty among Arabs they are alwasy targetted with violence. Rachel Corrie had had her pup tent strafed by AK fire the night before she died.Many Arabs hate them, seeing them as vile incarnations of Western culture. Yet the Left scurries to eat their scraps. Just like the White Guilt of the 1960s when they would invite Black Nationalists to cocktailparties and have them insult them in their pompous faces.

As for the rest, I especially found the comments about Liberia to be very insightful. Great post.

 

[Gmart]

This of course is your opinion. A zionist would question it's veracity.

A Zionist by definition is unable to see beyond the apparent need for a state of Israel, so their opinion might be viewed as somewhat biased.

And Rach. All I hear from you is fear of compromise, fear of change and fear of doing anything other than war. Israel won't get anywhere living in fear and so I will suggest compromise until finally you work out that it is your only way forward.

As it is you seem determined to use violence to control people, so don't run to us when it all blows up in your face. Any resolution will have to wait until you learn this lesson. Some people learn the easy way, listening to their peers, and some just insist on learning the hard way.

 

[rachamim18]

G: "G's deifnition fo a Zionist.": Uh, no, Zionists are as varied as any other demographic. You have some insane idea that all Zionists think the same . Apart from the BELIEF in Jewish self determination they can hold any range of views.

"All G hears from Rachamim is fear of no war,etc.": You are eharing things nobody else hears. You know what they say about people who hear voices, right?



OK, Israel will not run to you when "it blows up."

 

[Gmart]

Apart from the BELIEF in Jewish self determination...

That was the belief I was commenting on. What you're saying is like stating that a KKK member does like football you know!!! Sure, but I was concentrating on the issue at hand, not trying to paint a full picture of someone's personality.

And yes, all I hear from you is fear of compromise, regurgitated over and over in as varied a way as your intelligence can find. You will find any excuse for Israel not to compromise. It doesn't matter what they do, you can be depended upon to find an excuse for their violence.

I am consistently stating that I am unhappy with the lack of compromise on either side, yet you cannot even agree with that, because you are so convinced that Israel can do no wrong.

You are like Boxer from Animal Farm.

 

[Grandma Death]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/30/israelandthepalestinians

An Israeli child from a far-right settler group in the West Bank city of Hebron hurls a stone up the stairs of a Palestinian family close to their settlement and shouts: "I will exterminate you." Another spits towards the same family.

Wonder what programme this child watched?

 

[goldenecitrone]

And they call it the Holy Land. What a joke.

 

[rachamim18]

G: "KKK members like football.": You lost me on that one.

"Rachamim is like 'Boxer' from 'animal Farm'.": I have certainly been called worse.

Grandma: "Grandma wonders what a Jewish child in Hebron, who told a neighbouring Arab family that he 'would exterminate them' was watching.":My guess? HAMAS TV (al Aksa TV). He probably saw the freindly Mouse, Bee, or Rabbit saying he would exterminate all Jewws and turned the tables. See we do not have tv like that. Indeed, to even say such a thing is a crime resulting in prison time. Had a Jewish child actually said that, and the recipient of the coomment comaplined, the child would be in intensive counseling and the parents perhaps jailed. Ergo I call it B.S. , just more lies.

I ever tell you about my grandfather Gradma? He and my eldest uncle? See Hebron is my family's hometown and they were EXTERMINATED therew with the rest of a Jewish Community that dated from the Bible. That is what makes the Guardian, that bastion of fair mindedness with regard to Israel and Jews, so ignorant.

A Jewish tot in Hebron telling an Arab that they would be exterminated. How ironic, how telling.

 

[Gmart]

G: "KKK members like football.": You lost me on that one.

Perhaps if you thought more, about perceptions which you don't share, you might understand a bit better.

 

[Grandma Death]

Grandma: "Grandma wonders what a Jewish child in Hebron, who told a neighbouring Arab family that he 'would exterminate them' was watching.":My guess? HAMAS TV (al Aksa TV). He probably saw the freindly Mouse, Bee, or Rabbit saying he would exterminate all Jewws and turned the tables. See we do not have tv like that. Indeed, to even say such a thing is a crime resulting in prison time. Had a Jewish child actually said that, and the recipient of the coomment comaplined, the child would be in intensive counseling and the parents perhaps jailed. Ergo I call it B.S. , just more lies.

Only you can put a spin on such nastieness spewing from the mouth of a child-I expect nothing less. Have you even looked at the link? It has a video....so its not B.S.

I ever tell you about my grandfather Gradma? <snip>

No and I'm not particularly interested either.

 

[rachamim18]

G: Sorry, but I have NO idea what you are talking about, not even remotely. Perhaps you are joking and making up nonsensical things.

Grandma: I am quite familiar with Hebron. Although I have never lived there it is my family's hometown so I am more than familiar with it actually. As for THAT child, even IF true, ugliness is everywhere, as are bad parents...OR mentally ill children. However, simply review the educational systems of each demographic, followed by records concerning hatred perpertrated by youngsters (in our part of the world that refers only to those younger than age 11). If you do you will find that Arabs BY FAR spew much more hatred. their text books, their tv shows, the bulk of their entire culture is geared towards extrem hatred and that I am sad to say is a fact. On the other hand, that litle Jewish child? An abberration IF at all.


I am sure you are NOT interested in what happened to my family IN HEBRON. Just your typical impartiality and objectiveness.

 

[rachamim18]

add, after "impartiality and objectivity...AS TYPIFIED BY THE GUARDIAN."

 

[Gmart]

G: Sorry, but I have NO idea what you are talking about, not even remotely. Perhaps you are joking and making up nonsensical things.

I thought I was quite clear:

Perhaps if you thought more, about perceptions which you don't share, you might understand a bit better.

I think the Boxer comment is perfect for you, though I am sad that you seem so dedicated to the path of war and fear. I would compromise anything not to be in such a world.

 

[Grandma Death]

Grandma: I am quite familiar with Hebron. Although I have never lived there it is my family's hometown so I am more than familiar with it actually. As for THAT child, even IF true,

It is true-there's a video in that link. Why are you questioning its authenticity?

If you do you will find that Arabs BY FAR spew much more hatred. their text books, their tv shows, the bulk of their entire culture is geared towards extrem hatred and that I am sad to say is a fact. On the other hand, that litle Jewish child? An abberration IF at all.

This isn't some sort of competition. I condemn equally any sort of bile like that coming from anyone's mouth and particularly so from children. I know it's a struggle for you to accept that maybe, just maybe some Jewish people think like this boy-hence you're best attempt to put a spin on it.
You can't even bring yourself to condemn it can you-pathetic.

I am sure you are NOT interested in what happened to my family IN HEBRON. Just your typical impartiality and objectiveness.

More like not interested in your stories of family life. They bore me and and aren't even relevant in most cases.

 

[Grandma Death]

add, after "impartiality and objectivity...AS TYPIFIED BY THE GUARDIAN."

So this is you questioning the authenticity and impartiality of a source and you rarely provide sources of your own. Mmmmm.....