taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Yeah, slagging off militarist propaganda and the fact that soldiers are treated like shit. Must be terrible.
Check out the latest state-militarist mind-progamming from the US :-(
- Thread starter taffboy gwyrdd
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Yeah, slagging off militarist propaganda and the fact that soldiers are treated like shit. Must be terrible.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Fridgemagnet
"The point is that this is propaganda that's about third or fourth hand. Firstly you have explicit statements by the Pentagon and White House. Then you have media commentary on that. Then you have cultural products that ostensibly aren't "news" but are based around certain myths and desired stereotypes"
As far as the young people this is clearly aimed at are concerned this is first hand propaganda. It is presented directly to them in their own cultural terms. But if you want to argue that they spend more time digesting white house press releases than MTV, be my guest.
You mentioned "24" yourself, quite correctly, for it's pro-torture agenda. But in your own terms that is "4th hand". There are separate tiers of propaganda with separate functions and guises, but again I expect 24 has done more to inculcate the "acceptability" of torture than some bit of apologist bollocks from the likes of Rumsfeld.
"The point is that this is propaganda that's about third or fourth hand. Firstly you have explicit statements by the Pentagon and White House. Then you have media commentary on that. Then you have cultural products that ostensibly aren't "news" but are based around certain myths and desired stereotypes"
As far as the young people this is clearly aimed at are concerned this is first hand propaganda. It is presented directly to them in their own cultural terms. But if you want to argue that they spend more time digesting white house press releases than MTV, be my guest.
You mentioned "24" yourself, quite correctly, for it's pro-torture agenda. But in your own terms that is "4th hand". There are separate tiers of propaganda with separate functions and guises, but again I expect 24 has done more to inculcate the "acceptability" of torture than some bit of apologist bollocks from the likes of Rumsfeld.
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
Oh ffs
It's not the message that matters, it's only the messenger. If they're the 'wrong' messenger, then whatever they say will not be listened to.
It's an amazingly shortsighted view, but it's prevalent unfortunately. But good news for those who are exploiting and abusing their power.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Indeed. Why let facts obstruct narrative?
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
no it isn't
If you want to fuck squirrels with a leek, be my guest.
no it isn't, it's third-hand, though I suppose you could count the hands differently
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
I must say though that the title of this thread makes me grin every time I see it 
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
"no it isn't"
It's commissioned by the state and experienced more directly by the target audience than what you describe as "1st hand"
"If you want to fuck squirrels with a leek, be my guest."
Surrealist sweariness is no subsitute for substantive points.
"no it isn't, it's third-hand,"
Fair enough, if you say so.
"the title of this thread makes me grin every time I see it"
is it that you find state militarist mind-programming funny or are you contending that it is neither state / militarist or mind-programming? Advertising is designed to change behaviour and / or opinions. I asked Ed how much he knew about Bernays, I'd ask you the same (I dont think he answered). If advertising didnt succeed the ad agencies wouldnt be hired. That's capitalism that is.
It's commissioned by the state and experienced more directly by the target audience than what you describe as "1st hand"
"If you want to fuck squirrels with a leek, be my guest."
Surrealist sweariness is no subsitute for substantive points.
"no it isn't, it's third-hand,"
Fair enough, if you say so.
"the title of this thread makes me grin every time I see it"
is it that you find state militarist mind-programming funny or are you contending that it is neither state / militarist or mind-programming? Advertising is designed to change behaviour and / or opinions. I asked Ed how much he knew about Bernays, I'd ask you the same (I dont think he answered). If advertising didnt succeed the ad agencies wouldnt be hired. That's capitalism that is.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Well we arent likely to stop government propaganda, so the best bet is to ensure that your counter propaganda has more credibility. Use of hysterical, paranoid or overly emotive phrases may draw more attention to the existence of your propaganda, but harms its credibility.
elbows
Well-Known Member
The Bernays stuff is always interesting, just add an egg.
Thing is, like other related threads, things go wrong because there is this presumption that you either have to act shocked, outraged & overwhelmed by the horrors of propaganda, or else be totally blind to any evils that the state may commit.
Well there is a rich middle ground, full of people who are aware of propaganda, its long history, its modern forms. Maybe they dont like the propaganda or its aims, but they are unlikely to feel so strongly about it as to use all sorts of terms that sound like they've come from a dystopian nightmare.
Meanwhile the clash of language and worldview, allows obscurity and muddied waters to prevail, to the potential benefit of both the state and the paranoid self-made hero's who would save us from the state.
Take for example the capabilities of the state, both in terms of actual capability and will to do 'nasty things'. One side may rather overstate these to an absurd level, which has the tendency to cause the other side to understate them. But Ive no idea how well the two balance each other out, especially on forum threads. I suspect that the backlash against tinfoil has rather limited the breadth of acceptable discussion, rendering the medium almost as stilted as television debates. Middle of the road is no place to be to bring about positive change, but who can blame those who shelter there given the discoloured nature of many outside that comfortable middle ground.
Thing is, like other related threads, things go wrong because there is this presumption that you either have to act shocked, outraged & overwhelmed by the horrors of propaganda, or else be totally blind to any evils that the state may commit.
Well there is a rich middle ground, full of people who are aware of propaganda, its long history, its modern forms. Maybe they dont like the propaganda or its aims, but they are unlikely to feel so strongly about it as to use all sorts of terms that sound like they've come from a dystopian nightmare.
Meanwhile the clash of language and worldview, allows obscurity and muddied waters to prevail, to the potential benefit of both the state and the paranoid self-made hero's who would save us from the state.
Take for example the capabilities of the state, both in terms of actual capability and will to do 'nasty things'. One side may rather overstate these to an absurd level, which has the tendency to cause the other side to understate them. But Ive no idea how well the two balance each other out, especially on forum threads. I suspect that the backlash against tinfoil has rather limited the breadth of acceptable discussion, rendering the medium almost as stilted as television debates. Middle of the road is no place to be to bring about positive change, but who can blame those who shelter there given the discoloured nature of many outside that comfortable middle ground.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Calling a spade a spade need not be hysterical or paranoid.
I am not purporting that anyone not acting shocked is blind.
"but they are unlikely to feel so strongly about it as to use all sorts of terms that sound like they've come from a dystopian nightmare."
That's fine, but if you are referring to "mind programming" I reitereate that mind programming is a prime function of advertising, and if it wasnt successfult the capitalist wouldnt hire the agency. Bernays is indeed always interesting. You have a highly successful and influential guy from a few generations back writing openly about manipulating the public and operating as a secret government. Decades later when we talk about the same stuff it is derided as "conspiracy theory". Interesting indeed.
Yes there is middle ground of people who dont like a lot of propaganda but might not use certain terms to denounce it.
But that's no excuse if they end up being soft on what is categorical state/militarist propaganda.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
That is not what I meant by "first hand"; I think made it pretty clear and you seem to be quite happy with it in other contexts.
Well, try referring to something I said, then.
I find the hyperbole amusing.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
[QUOTE I find the hyperbole amusing.[/QUOTE]
The piece in question is militarist, produced in the name of the state and an attempt to influence opinion and / or behaviour, ergo mind programming.
Sorry, no hyperbole. Just ugly truth.
The piece in question is militarist, produced in the name of the state and an attempt to influence opinion and / or behaviour, ergo mind programming.
Sorry, no hyperbole. Just ugly truth.
editor
hiraethified
How do you think the average citizen would respond to your "state-militarist mind-programming" claim?
Do you think they'd nod in enthusiastic agreement and exclaim, "Yes! That's it! We're all being mind controlled!" or do you think they'd say something along the lines of, "begone, weirdo"?
8ball
As seen on TikTok
Words like 'manipulation' or even 'propaganda' can be used plausibly enough, but the term 'mind programming' is reminiscent of the ramblings of schizophrenics, so might not be the best of terms to use in your arguments.
8ball
As seen on TikTok
And this is how a crashing lack of subtlety can also rob a persuasive counter-argument of its punch . . .
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
I really do understand that POV. On the other hand, we shouldnt always cower from calling a spade a spade just because some people find the language a bit strong.
Again, from Bernays. It's heavy stuff. no point saying otherwise. His techniques have been developed massively since his career.
"If we understand the mechanisms and motives of the group mind, it is now possible to control and regiment the masses according to our will without their knowing it... In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons ... who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind."
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country."
He is describing mind control. Ugly. True.
8ball
As seen on TikTok
I've never actually read this stuff so can't really see any of the context around these quotes.
That said, Bernays was the forefather of an industry practised by a huge number of different parties, for a wide variety of goals.
There are a lot of groups trying to pull different demographics in all manner of directions, and nothing like a single global conspiracy, which is the kind of idea often peddled by those using terms like 'mind control'.
That said, Bernays was the forefather of an industry practised by a huge number of different parties, for a wide variety of goals.
There are a lot of groups trying to pull different demographics in all manner of directions, and nothing like a single global conspiracy, which is the kind of idea often peddled by those using terms like 'mind control'.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
You been watching Century of the Self?
elbows
Well-Known Member
Well the thing about Bernays in those quotes is that he was doing the hard sell for his profession, talking up their powers over the mind. All the same loads of it clearly works well enough to make a profit.
But its a bit like the various cold war paranoia fueled experiments in mind control, there are limits to hat can be achieved.
There are at least 3 reasons not to use the term mind control, namely it's onnection with cold war paranoia era, bad sci fi, and certain forms of full blown paranoid mental illness. The corruption of language, soiling of labels and suchlike, is certainly a part of the battle for hearts and minds, and its probably rather silly of me to be giving you public relations advice on a thread about propaganda but there you go.
But its a bit like the various cold war paranoia fueled experiments in mind control, there are limits to hat can be achieved.
There are at least 3 reasons not to use the term mind control, namely it's onnection with cold war paranoia era, bad sci fi, and certain forms of full blown paranoid mental illness. The corruption of language, soiling of labels and suchlike, is certainly a part of the battle for hearts and minds, and its probably rather silly of me to be giving you public relations advice on a thread about propaganda but there you go.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I love that documentary. As long as Curtis's somewhat oversimplified narrative and sometimes wrong conclusions about the underlying causes of stuff are not taken far too seriously, his works contain a rich array of fascinating stuff and plenty of food for thought.
He certainly shone the torch on Bernays quite well. The 'Torches Of Freedom' campaign to get women smoking was especially illuminating.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Well mind control is mind control. Of course many people have used the techniques for many purposes. It's still mind control.
blagsta
You been watching Century of the Self?
All Adam Curtis stuff is worth watching. And as elbow alludes I'm sure it's not 100% accurate, but it is certainly more accurate than most of the bilge we are served up by the corporate mainstream media.
elbows
I know Bernays was talking up his profession and skills, but he certainly had a great deal of effect with it (conflating smoking with female independence through phoney events and other PR was a highly notourious example). Advertising today has built on that with generations of top minds and oodles of £/$ committed to the "art". I can not re-iterate enough that the mega-billion industry of advertsing simply wouldnt exist if it didnt work.
Further, in terms of mind control as a political objective - say "propaganda" to people and they will often think of the Soviet or nazi model (although Bernays was a prolific writer on the topic too). That's fair enough, but some people almost seem to act like those techniques weren't improved upon.
Operation Paperclip didnt just involve nazi rocket scientists being seconded by the US, it also involved psychologists. Around the time of WW2 the top pasttimes in the US were reading and inventing. Within a generation they were replaced by shopping and sports. That's a pretty big shift and it's hard to believe it happened all by itself.
editor
hiraethified
The YouTube video is not 'mind control.'
It may be propaganda. It may seek to influence. But what it is not doing is exerting any kind of 'state-militarist mind programming' on the viewer, least not by any sensible definition of the phrase. Throwing around the phrase just alienates and insults 'normal' people.
The Manchurian Candidate. Now,thatwas propah mind programming.
It's a pity you weren't lucky enough to read phuckthewar's contributions to these forums, he wasn't around long. He spent time (donig one or two degrees, can't remember) becoming a bit of an 'expert' in marketing and advertising and the like precisely because he wanted to understand how that world worked so that he could attack it from a position of strength!
And he could use the english language in blistering ways! He burned more than a few posters who were talking bollocks.
As for the use of 'mind control', language is the power!! Those who know it, those who get the platform have the power. What on earth is wrong with you using the term 'mind control' when that is exactly what is going on??!!
After all, most people's minds are simply a reflection of society. How many people have a mind that operates independently of the society they grew up in and live in?? Little hints of creativity and rebelliousness creep into some people on occasion, but in general their minds are to all intents and purposes owned/controlled by society. Precisely because of mind control mechanisms going on all around them, and for their first 18 years in life. By which time so much is so fixed it's real difficult to undo it all.
Stuyding group psychology is also informative here. And such a study will provide a basic reason why mind-control can actually work: people simply want to feel good, so anything that comes along and apparently helps them do this, will be open to acceptance. To rebel, to negate the effects of mind-control, means hard work, and often unattractive work.
Quite rightly humans want an easy life without the need to work excessively hard, and this human condition lays us open to mind-control techniques, as those doing the controlling know very well.
And i think 'mind-control' is distinctly different to 'propaganda'. Most people know about the latter, and can usually detect it, while mind-control and its effects belong to the unconscious world.
ska invita
back on the other side
Not sure why Im chipping in here (should go to work!), just a point on the semantics of all this - all advertising/propaganda, it is fair to say, is a form of mind control - it sounds scary, but its not innacurate. The Bernays quote is testiment.
Ed is right that programming is used more for Manchurian Candidate-type situations.
So, I think you are all right!
I dont think there is anything wrong in writing the odd shocking overblown thread title to give a thread a kick start...
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
"Throwing around the phrase just alienates and insults 'normal' people."
That wouldnt make it a mis-use of language for one thing. People who'd be offended or put off by the term before swallowing the next load of corpo-koolaid, well Im not sure what could be done to pursuade them anyway.
I'm certainly not capable of creating as much alienation as modern capitalism or insulting intelligence as much as state propaganda does.
That wouldnt make it a mis-use of language for one thing. People who'd be offended or put off by the term before swallowing the next load of corpo-koolaid, well Im not sure what could be done to pursuade them anyway.
I'm certainly not capable of creating as much alienation as modern capitalism or insulting intelligence as much as state propaganda does.
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