Chartered accountants regulating body

[Hollis]

"Legally, anyone can call themselves an ‘accountant’ without the necessary training and experience. But before becoming a ‘Chartered Accountant’ and using the designatory letters ACA or FCA, Institute members must:

· undertake a period of at least three years’ training with an organisation that is authorised by the Institute;

· pass tough exams covering financial management, auditing, business strategy, taxation and IT.

· undertake a programme of Continuing Professional Development, which demonstrates their commitment to high standards.



This training and experience also ensures that Chartered Accountants develop communication skills, business awareness and professional judgement."

 

[oisleep]

all you've done their hollis is list what someone must do to call themself a chartered ACA, that does not preclude other qualified accountants from other chartered bodies from calling themself chartered

 

[Hollis]

I think basically you can call yourself the following;

An Accountant

Certified

Chartered


But what you cannot call yourself is a

Chartered Accountant

 

[oisleep]

You do know that it would be a criminal offence under the trade descriptions act to advertise yourself or your services as a "Chartered Accountant" rather than chartered certified accountant don't you?

which part of the trade descriptions act would this be contravening?

as all 5 accountancy bodies in the UK are of equal status under the law, and therefore are able (if they have suitably qualified staff) to offer the exact same set of services and provided with the same level of professional accreditation, i fail to see how your assertion holds true?

it's not like someone is advertising themselves as a gas boiler fitter and not being corgi regestired, it's more akin, in fact the same as, two different firms of plumbers who are corgi registered

 

[Hollis]

I'd take you to court.

I did spend 4 years training to have any ol' Tom/Dick/Harry calling themselves a Chartered Accountant..

 

[oisleep]

I think basically you can call yourself the following;

An Accountant

Certified

Chartered


But what you cannot call yourself is a

Chartered Accountant

and i keep asking for you to refer to me a source that precludes such a description on legal grounds? you've so far shown me a source that says members of ICAEW/ICAS can call themselves chartered accountants, and a source that says ACCA people are known as chartered certified accountants, but none that backs up your assertion above

 

[oisleep]

I'd take you to court.

I did spend 4 years training to have any ol' Tom/Dick/Harry calling themselves a Chartered Accountant..

great, point me now to which law i'd contravened that your court case would be based upon?

and i spent 4 years training to become an accountant as well, so what

there is no distinction under UK law that gives a greater status or allows a body to offer services that can't be offered by any of the 5 recognised bodies, so there is no difference, other than brand preference

 

[Hollis]

No. You are not a Chartered Accountant. Please desist from describing yourself as such.

"Chartered Accountants

Identified by the letters ACA or FCA after their name. Only Chartered Accountants can describe themselves as such but note that anybody can call themselves an “accountant”. If you are in any doubt as to whether someone is a Chartered Accountant, check on the Institute’s website (see below).

Regulated by the Institute of Chartered Accountants of England and Wales (www.icaew.co.uk)

"Chartered Certified Accountants

Identified by the letters ACCA or FCCA after their name. Only Chartered Certified Accountants can describe themselves as such but note that anybody can call themselves an “accountant”. If you are in any doubt as to whether someone is a Chartered Certified Accountant, check on the Association’s website (see below).


Chartered Certified Accountants - completely different.

 

[oisleep]

that says that only members of the ICAEW/ICAS can refer to themselves as ACA/FCA which is not the same

what's different about them? what can one do that the other can't?

(also can you give me the direct link to where you got that from)

 

[Hollis]

Can't be arsed to find it again.. your own institutes website states that you describe yourself's as Chartered Certified Accountants.

 

[Hollis]

what's different about them? what can one do that the other can't?

Now thats a completely different question.. doesn't negate the difference in description.

 

[oisleep]

Can't be arsed to find it again

i found your source

so you're source above is from http://www.freelanceuk.com/ some private website, my source was from a government agency website http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/home?&domain=www.businesslink.gov.uk

so far we have two conflicting things, one from some dodgy private website, another from a govt website, i notice you couldn't actually find anything on any of the associations websites to back up your claim, nor can you relate the statement said on that freelance website to any law which precludes me using such a description

 

[oisleep]

Can't be arsed to find it again.. your own institutes website states that you describe yourself's as Chartered Certified Accountants.

but that's not the same hollis, it says they are described as X, it doesn't say they legally cannot call themself Y

of course they are described as something different to chartered accountant, but that is just about brand recognition/distinction, there's nothing legally against describing themselves as straight chartered, because as i've pointed out a million times the ACCA and the ICAEW along with the others hold the exact same royal charter, there is no distinction under law between them, therefore there cannot be a law precluding them from referring to the charter that they have had bestowed upon them (unless you want to link me to one that does?)

 

[Hollis]

1) Members and Fellows

(a) Subject to the provisions of Global Practising Regulations 3 and 4, which prohibit members without a practising certificate from carrying on activities which constitute public practice, on admission to membership an individual shall become a Member of the Association and may denote his membership of the Association by the use of the professional designation Chartered Certified Accountant or Certified Accountant and/or the designatory letters ACCA.

(b) A member who was admitted to membership on or after 1 January 2005 and has been a Member of the Association for a continuous period of five years shall automatically advance to fellowship, and be a Fellow, of the Association and may denote his fellowship of the Association by the use of the professional designation Chartered Certified Accountant or Certified Accountant and/or the designatory letters FCCA, providing the member has not breached the continuing professional development requirements of regulation 4(4) during that time.

(c) A member who was admitted to membership before 1 January 2005 and has applied for accelerated fellowship prior to 1 January 2008 shall advance to fellowship, and be a Fellow, of the Association and may denote his fellowship of the Association by the use of the professional designation Chartered Certified Accountant or Certified Accountant and/or the designatory letters FCCA, providing the member has:


See - you can't use the professional designation Chartered Accountant.. unless you want to get excluded from your own institute.

<extracted from a tortuous search through the ACCA rulebook.>

 

[Hollis]

Furthermore..

"Regulations Relating to the Use of the Description ‘Chartered Accountants’ and to General Affiliates of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales

1 These regulations were made by the Council under Clauses 12A and 16 of the Supplemental Charter and Bye-law 55 on the fifth day of April 2000 and came into effect on the first day of May 2000.

2 In these regulations the term ‘Chartered Accountant’ means a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales (the Institute) or a member of one of the following bodies:

The Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland

The Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland

The Institute of Chartered Accountants in Australia

The Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants

The South African Institute of Chartered Accountants

The Institute of Chartered Accountants of Zimbabwe

The Institute of Chartered Accountants of New Zealand. "

 

[guinnessdrinker]

I did not think it was possible to have a fight about the meaning of chartered accountant . clearly, nothing to account for in the office...

 

[oisleep]

1) Members and Fellows

(a) Subject to the provisions of Global Practising Regulations 3 and 4, which prohibit members without a practising certificate from carrying on activities which constitute public practice, on admission to membership an individual shall become a Member of the Association and may denote his membership of the Association by the use of the professional designation Chartered Certified Accountant or Certified Accountant and/or the designatory letters ACCA.

(b) A member who was admitted to membership on or after 1 January 2005 and has been a Member of the Association for a continuous period of five years shall automatically advance to fellowship, and be a Fellow, of the Association and may denote his fellowship of the Association by the use of the professional designation Chartered Certified Accountant or Certified Accountant and/or the designatory letters FCCA, providing the member has not breached the continuing professional development requirements of regulation 4(4) during that time.

(c) A member who was admitted to membership before 1 January 2005 and has applied for accelerated fellowship prior to 1 January 2008 shall advance to fellowship, and be a Fellow, of the Association and may denote his fellowship of the Association by the use of the professional designation Chartered Certified Accountant or Certified Accountant and/or the designatory letters FCCA, providing the member has:


See - you can't use the professional designation Chartered Accountant.. unless you want to get excluded from your own institute.

<extracted from a tortuous search through the ACCA rulebook.>

hollis, all that says is what members of ACCA will be known as (for brand recognition purposes above all), it doesn't preclude them from calling themselves chartered accountants, seeing that they have the exact same royal charter as other UK accountancy bodies

it's just the same as your previous attempts, you've shown that they will be known as X, but not proved that they are precluded from referring to themselves as Y

 

[oisleep]

"Regulations Relating to the Use of the Description ‘Chartered Accountants’ and to General Affiliates of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales

1 These regulations were made by the Council under Clauses 12A and 16 of the Supplemental Charter and Bye-law 55 on the fifth day of April 2000 and came into effect on the first day of May 2000.

2 In these regulations the term ‘Chartered Accountant’ means a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales (the Institute) or a member of one of the following bodies:

The Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland

The Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland

The Institute of Chartered Accountants in Australia

The Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants

The South African Institute of Chartered Accountants

The Institute of Chartered Accountants of Zimbabwe

The Institute of Chartered Accountants of New Zealand. "

and this doesn't prove anything either, the phrase "In these regulations the term ‘Chartered Accountant’ means" just defines the word in relation to the ICAEW's own regulations. ICAEW's regulations do not extend beyond their own organisation, so they can define what "chartered accountant" means in relation to their own internal affairs, but not i'm afraid, out and into the wider community

i.e.

In these regulations the term ‘Chartered Accountant’ means

key words being "in these regulations" it's just like a phrase being defined at the beginnig of a legal contract, that definition is valid within that contract only, not outwith it

 

[oisleep]

furthermore

anyway hollis, if you'd read through the regulations you quoted you would have come across the following

7 A member firm which engages in public practice is entitled to describe itself as ‘Chartered Accountants’ provided that any partner or director who is not a chartered accountant holds affiliate status from the Institute under its Investment Business Regulations, Audit Regulations, Insolvency Licensing Regulations or these regulations

so, if someone holds affiliate status they can describe themselves/their firm as 'Chartered Accountants', how do you get affilate status i hear you thunder, well amongst other things......

16 The CPSO shall be responsible for determining applications for general affiliate status. Such status may be granted if the CPSO is satisfied that:

iv the applicant is able to demonstrate appropriate and relevant experience of accountancy or of a related discipline or has one or more of the following qualifications:

1. Membership of the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants;
2. Membership of the Chartered Institute of Management Accountants;
3. Membership of the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy;
4. Membership of the Chartered Institute of Taxation;
5. Membership of the Institute of Management Consultants;
6. Membership of the Association of Accounting Technicians.

 

[peppery]

How exciting !! I din't know there were so many fellow urbanite accountants

I'm ACCA as well, why are we fighting, we all know the real enemies are CIMA, they're not proper accoutants let gang up on them?

 

[Hollis]

anyway hollis, if you'd read through the regulations you quoted you would have come across the following



so, if someone holds affiliate status they can describe themselves/their firm as 'Chartered Accountants', how do you get affilate status i hear you thunder, well amongst other things......

Yep.. so if basically, we, the SUPERIOR Accountancy institute feel like doing so, and you've grovelled around another bunch of properly qualified Chartered Accountants, then you get to call yourself a 'chartered accountant' - providing you stay with that firm.

Sorry.. at a dinner party I could call myself a deep sea diver or brain surgeon, I wouldn't get very far if I tried putting these descriptions into practice.

 

[oisleep]

ahem, your moving the argument on to something else now, the original point was whether anyone from one of the five accountancy bodies in the uk can call themselves chartered, i said they could, you (and others) said they couldn't, that was all I was arguing about, and i've since been proved right (and not just on the basis of the stuff quoted from ICAEW, but by the wider argument that they are all equally chartered)

beyond that i couldn't care less about arguments as to who is better than another, only sad accountants care about that shit

and i've never been to a dinner party, although i'm not sure if i had your final point would be any more meaningful to me

 

[Hollis]

Not at all. I said early you could call yourself Chartered. Just not a Chartered Accountant.

Anyway..needless to say in real life I only ever refer to myself as an 'accountant' when asked, as others can confirm. Anything else is just too wanky.

 

[oisleep]

aye, same point though, and you were proved wrong

so why three pages of intense arguments trying to covet the term as your own then

 

[oisleep]

Anyway..needless to say in real life I only ever refer to myself as an 'accountant' when asked, as others can confirm. Anything else is just too wanky.

that's wanky enough on it's own mate!

 

[Hollis]

aye, same point though, and you were proved wrong

so why three pages of intense arguments trying to covet the term as your own then

From my earliest posts I accepted you could say you were Chartered. In particular I refer you to post 33.

 

[Hollis]

that's wanky enough on it's own mate!

Indeed, only when pressed. Some people are suprisingly impressed though.

 

[oisleep]

From my earliest posts I accepted you could say you were Chartered. In particular I refer you to post 33.

which was not the issue under debate however, you asserted that someone not within the ICAEW/ICAS were not allowed to refer to themselves as chartered accountant, that was what the discussion was about, i even had kameron saying i could have criminal charges brought against me for doing so!

edit: and anyway, you say i could refer to myself as chartered - chartered what, surveyor?

 

[Derian]

Pigeon ...

... have you got any problems with pensions too?

I wanna see this with Actuaries !!

 

[Hollis]

I still say oisleep would get in some serious shit if he started calling himself a 'chartered accountant' in any serious capacity.