Charities to take over NHS clinics...
- Thread starter treelover
- Start date
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Labour always polled well regarding the nhs but even on that issue they are behind the tories .they put more money in but where did it all go
They PFIed it up against the wall. It went to the major multinational companies like Balfour Beatie, Capita, Serco and Rentokill Initial among others.
my emphasis
Note those words 'thought leader' , the companies bidding for contracts are now looking to control the ideas of the politicians who commission them. This is not democracy. I got this from a pdf document produced by SERCO.
I noticed.
There's never any one right answer to an issue as big as public health. There are a number of different potential solutions that could be made to work. Sometimes I get the feeling that some folk like to decide that their particular solution is absolutely the best and seem incapable of seeing the potential of others.
Quite often I find it degenerates into purely talking about the negative aspects of pretty much everything. There much more to having an understanding of politics than simply knowing how to moan about everything.
sevenstars
citizen army
You appear to be complaining about people expressing geniune, and widespread concerns about our NHS - the most popular institution in the UK I believe. It makes me wonder what country you are actually living in?
Its actually easy to say with confidence that private sector involvement in healthcare is wasteful and inefficient.
The USA is the prime example, of course, but even in England & Wales over the last few years we are seeing a massive drain of resources out of providing healthcare and into the private sector AND to setting up and administering market mechanisms within the NHS.
There is another, valid, argument to be made about democratising the NHS that I would accept, though I'd link that to democratising society more in general.
Fragementing the NHS with the use of social enterprises is all about creating the conditions to allow corporations to move in. You only have to listen to what New Labour actually say to know this.
Its actually easy to say with confidence that private sector involvement in healthcare is wasteful and inefficient.
The USA is the prime example, of course, but even in England & Wales over the last few years we are seeing a massive drain of resources out of providing healthcare and into the private sector AND to setting up and administering market mechanisms within the NHS.
There is another, valid, argument to be made about democratising the NHS that I would accept, though I'd link that to democratising society more in general.
Fragementing the NHS with the use of social enterprises is all about creating the conditions to allow corporations to move in. You only have to listen to what New Labour actually say to know this.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
the charities involved here wouldn't be funded through 'fundraising', they be funded thru competitive tendering, ie the same government money as is currently paid to the nhs. except, less money, cos thats what the point if it really is
No.. I am point out that you sometimes threads like this appear to be nothing but a bunch of complainers.
Complaining about every single thing that they could possibly ever complain about... all the fucking . If it's not done exactly the way they want it.. it's bound to be shit.
It makes other people just not bothered to get involved in any actual discussions.
No the problem is that how can people know its privatisation when the media a sserve the corperate interest and public broadcasters just report spin as fact
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
The whole rightward shift is alarming. I don't understand it. How will it win the next election for Brown when the Tories have already stolen a march on him and won over Middle England?
It is too late for Brown to win on the basis of the swing voters, they will flock to Cameron and already have done. The only way Brown or the Labour party can win the next GE is by delivering for the people that don't vote and the working class, with good social welfare policies, and taxation of the rich to alleviate the credit crunch.
I have a theory that perhaps Brown actually does want to lose as part of a deal with big business & the Tories to enable Thatcher's work to continue. Which is why he isn't challenging the consensus.
On the subject of the NHS, I don't see why all these changes in England are needed? The NHS doesn't cost that much to run compared to the cost of, for example, renewing Trident. Other countries in Europe have far more extensive and 'bloated' health services than we do- Sweden spends over twice as much as the UK does on health as a proportion of its budget. It is quite normal to have a public sector health service much bigger than our NHS. The level of service isn't that bad either, it could be worse. I don't see why politicians in England are so intent on handing it over to the market?
It is too late for Brown to win on the basis of the swing voters, they will flock to Cameron and already have done. The only way Brown or the Labour party can win the next GE is by delivering for the people that don't vote and the working class, with good social welfare policies, and taxation of the rich to alleviate the credit crunch.
I have a theory that perhaps Brown actually does want to lose as part of a deal with big business & the Tories to enable Thatcher's work to continue. Which is why he isn't challenging the consensus.
On the subject of the NHS, I don't see why all these changes in England are needed? The NHS doesn't cost that much to run compared to the cost of, for example, renewing Trident. Other countries in Europe have far more extensive and 'bloated' health services than we do- Sweden spends over twice as much as the UK does on health as a proportion of its budget. It is quite normal to have a public sector health service much bigger than our NHS. The level of service isn't that bad either, it could be worse. I don't see why politicians in England are so intent on handing it over to the market?
scifisam
deleted
Maybe that's because the work shouldn't be farmed out at all.
_angel_
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That will never happen!
I have a theory that perhaps Brown actually does want to lose as part of a deal with big business & the Tories to enable Thatcher's work to continue. Which is why he isn't challenging the consensus.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
The way forward for the NHS is outlined in the One Wales coalition agreement between Welsh Labour and Plaid Cymru-
* "We firmly reject the privatisation of NHS services or the organisation of such services on market models."
* "We will guarantee public ownership, public funding and public control of this vital service."
* "We will move purposefully to end the internal market."
* "We will eliminate the use of private sector hospitals by the NHS in Wales by 2011."
* "We will rule out use of the Private Finance Initiative in Wales during this term."
* "We will end competitive tendering for NHS cleaning contracts."
On the proactive front we are building the most advanced hospital ever in Wales, and only using public funds. There are also plans to create pharmacy-based NHS drop-in centres where people can get their free prescriptions, and to decentralise the NHS by creating community-based "well-being centres".
We also abolished car parking charges at hospitals.
If the Labour party in England adopted these policies then they could beat the Tories. Of course, this would involve them becoming an actual 'Labour' party, something they sold out on decades ago.
* "We firmly reject the privatisation of NHS services or the organisation of such services on market models."
* "We will guarantee public ownership, public funding and public control of this vital service."
* "We will move purposefully to end the internal market."
* "We will eliminate the use of private sector hospitals by the NHS in Wales by 2011."
* "We will rule out use of the Private Finance Initiative in Wales during this term."
* "We will end competitive tendering for NHS cleaning contracts."
On the proactive front we are building the most advanced hospital ever in Wales, and only using public funds. There are also plans to create pharmacy-based NHS drop-in centres where people can get their free prescriptions, and to decentralise the NHS by creating community-based "well-being centres".
We also abolished car parking charges at hospitals.
If the Labour party in England adopted these policies then they could beat the Tories. Of course, this would involve them becoming an actual 'Labour' party, something they sold out on decades ago.
I think this is true and what we are seing is the continuation of neo-con policies that are above party politics. I think people are waking up to the fact that labour or tory theya re all the same .With regards to NHS privatisation it is only natural that this is going to happen as this country has nothing else to sell but health and education which are now being seen as the best ways to generate 'investment' in a nutshell to compete with china and third world countries this country and eventually the rest of the EU will have to shift towards being a' service sector' as there is no manufacturing industry in the uk anymore ultimately this is leading to the the individual becoming a product; 'The fresh air economy' is about to suffercate liberty
The problem that Brown has now is that British politics have gone the way of American politics. Both parties need the money of business sponsors to run an election campaign. The money coming in from membership of the Labour Party and from the Trade Unions is not anything like enough these days.
So Brown has no choice but to try to appeal to certain business interests to get funding. This began before the 97 election with what was nicknamed the 'prawn cocktail offensive' where businessmen were courted extensively. Since then those newly named business 'stakeholders' who contributed money have been rewarded - except for the trade unions who could always be persuaded to stay supportive by moral blackmail and fear of the Tories.
There is no way back for New Labour. There isn't time to reform itself and I doubt if people would believe them if they tried to claim that they had rejected Thatcher/Blairism. They have no reserves of political credit or of financial credit. In my worst prognosis they will spend 5 years in opposition at the least.
The best hope is that we get a hung Parliament with enough LibDems, Greens, and sensible Independents to create a coalition that is answerable to Parliament and the voters.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
I think you're right.
I think with the whole New Labour project under Blair, especially during the first term, there was several 'decent' reforms that New Labour's supporters could justifiably say wouldn't have happened under the Tories. Minimum wage for example, devolution, and the family tax credits.
But now, even those small benefits haven't been built upon and New Labour is actually shifting further to the right under Brown.
With your comment on the Americanisation of politics in the UK, do you think that the plans for state-funding of political parties would be a way around this? I don't like the idea at all and Plaid MPs voted against it (although we would gain the most), but if it could reduce business' influence on elections it could be a good thing.
A hung parliament would be good as the odd Lib Dems, independents etc (and presumably nationalists) could have enough influence to stop the UK descending into a privatised police state.
Do people really think the LibDems are any different to labour or conservative when it comes to privatising stuff and welfare etc etc?
lifes to short to bother mentioning them
sevenstars
citizen army
You seem to be doing the most complaining yourself....
Part of the privatisation agenda involves destabilising the NHS, breaking it up, diverting resources to privateers etc AND THEN encouraging complaints that is isnt good enough -
'Clean hospitals' are a case in point - they were clean until the cleaners were privatised!
If you are frustated about the lack of discussion regarding the benefits of privatising the NHS, perhaps thats because it generally isnt something people think should be on the political agenda in this country.
This is one issue where the mainstream popular consensus is with us (ie those of us on the left).
Even middle class 'middle englanders' are to the left of the government on this, its not an election winner anywhere, but apparently it goes down well with large multinational corporations...
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
I wouldn't use the term "charity" here at all tbh, it has a lot of baggage attached. These are not-for-profit private organisations. There are differences between them and for-profit ones but it's mostly down to whether they can technically make a profit, pay dividends etc - it doesn't mean that they're nicer, more ethical, less greedy. It certainly doesn't mean that they fund-raise, as you say - fund-raising groups will almost always be not-for-profits, but not-for-profits are not necessarily fund-raisers. Just a different sort of company.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
you'll be overwhelmingly right there, but I do fear that some genuine charities will attempt to bid for services as a way of 'guaranteeing income' that they can use for their campaigning/charitable activities. That's what Shelter (and various other bodies) did with advice work, and now they're paying the price for it.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
Do people really think the LibDems are any different to labour or conservative when it comes to privatising stuff and welfare etc etc?
I'd go on evidence. At local level they're the same as Lab/Cons, but they haven't stood in the way of PFI being ended in Wales or Scotland. Their MP's might do the same if it came to it?
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
More than anything else this is the thing that's pissed me off NL, selling off schools and hospitals. Disgrace.
Yeah you're right. I'll leave you guys to moan about everything and it's dog... and rarely ever get anywhere near an interesting discussion about the actual topic of the thread.
I'll be back when/if it gets interesting.
sevenstars
citizen army
I know it must be frustrating for you, but dont rush back, you might learn a bit more about this by talking to some real people out there. And it might help cheer you up too.
I'm sure there are places on the internet for debating the merits of breaking up the NHS, you can find all sorts of bizzare and unusual things if you look, or so I'm told!
I'm sure there are places on the internet for debating the merits of breaking up the NHS, you can find all sorts of bizzare and unusual things if you look, or so I'm told!
Yeah. They call it 'a balanced viewpoint'. I'm not surprised you wouldn't know where to find one of those.
sevenstars
citizen army
Sorry, 'they' call discussing the merits of breaking up the NHS a balanced viewpoint?
Who are 'they'?
Who are 'they'?
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