Characterizing Israel

Discussion in 'theory, philosophy & history' started by frogwoman, Aug 2, 2014.

  1. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Fuck, it's hard. When even left-wing idealists at kibbutzim cannot properly face up to the fact that their brave social experiments are growing out of the ruins of the Palestinian villages they have replaced, the problem feels intractable.

    I don't think comparisons with fascism are quite there. I see very strong parallels with apartheid South Africa in the current positions of Palestinians and Arab Israelis, and also with North America and Australia in the 'original sin' of the founding of the nation that nobody, left or right, can quite face up to. The first of these could possibly be resolved were it not for the second.

    One thing I think is for sure is that there can never be an equitable, or even workable, two-state solution. In effect, this, what we have now, is what a two-state solution looks like, and always will. A one-state solution can only come about with (among other things) an end to zionism. Hard to see how this can end, but then things can change very quickly, as they did at the end of apartheid in SA.
    Greebo and frogwoman like this.
  2. 8ball

    8ball Up to something

    With SA a lot of large world powers were nudging the country away from the direction of apartheid - if that was the case here there might be more cause for hope but as things are it doesn't look good.
    Greebo likes this.
  3. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    The Jewish Israelis are going nowhere, though. That's a reality that Palestinians have to accept. Any agreement over a secular one-state solution in which Palestinians and Jewish Israelis share the land will have to involve some painful compromises on the Palestinian side as well as on the Israeli side. One of those compromises will be an acceptance that Jewish Israelis are not going anywhere, and further, that, however unfair this may be, Palestinians will not get back everything they had pre-1948.
  4. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Yeah, I'm not optimistic. I'd love to be, but I can see this dragging on for many decades yet.

    A solution feels much further away now than it did 20 years ago.
  5. DotCommunist

    DotCommunist specter haunting

    aye I saw that when frog explained the intertwining thing. I suppose it would be the same as me going to church and there they are passing the plate round for x political cause that is bound up with statehood and identity and etc etc (not quite the same, but thats how I worked around my confusion).
  6. SpackleFrog

    SpackleFrog Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts

    I have to say I don't have anywhere near the knowledge required to draw comparisons between the Bosnian genocide and Israel/Palestine, although I'm aware others here have.

    The Bantustan comparison was a bit simplistic - actually I think a better comparison would be pre-Apartheid South Africa, where for years the indigenous populations were repeatedly attacked/raided sporadically, more and more land being seized each time, the white settler colonies expanding to meet their expanding economic needs and taking more and more land as they did so. A similar pattern can be seen in most settler colonies - the America's, Australasia and Africa - no predetermined plan of genocide, but a slow and steady confiscation of land and resources and a racist attitude to indigenous peoples that was used to justify repeated attacks.

    If there is a Bantustan in Israel today it is perhaps the West Bank, where as far as I understand it the Palestinian population is totally economically dependent on Israel. Gaza shares a border with Egypt and the sea so (in theory) if the Israeli occupation were to be ended it could trade and engage in economic activity independently of Israel.

    You're right of course to say that white settlers didn't use intensive modern weaponry etc, but of course that's because they didn't have such weaponry. Put it in historical context and imagine American settlers using rifles and cannon against the bows and arrows and edged weapons of the Sioux and Cheyenne or Boer farmers using their guns against Khoi and San traditional weapons - its a total mismatch of military technology, just like the IDF and Hamas. I think the context of liberal democracy shapes the rhetoric around colonialism and imperialism, and I think modern technology shapes the way that the Israeli colonial state launches its assault on Palestinian land and people. I still think if you want a historical comparison, it exists in the brutality of the colonial era and the crimes committed by white European settlers against indigenous people all over the world. Not in Hitler's concentration camps.
  7. SpackleFrog

    SpackleFrog Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts

    No, they weren't. At least not until they saw how determined the black South African working class was to smash the shit out of the Apartheid state and thoroughly disrupt business in the process.
    chilango and frogwoman like this.
  8. Crispy

    Crispy The following psytrance is baṉned: All

  9. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    I think it is the right thread for this. US attitudes are important. The way that Israel is characterised in the US is pretty crucial, I would think. As long as there is a powerful movement in the US campaigning to 'stand shoulder-to-shoulder' with Israel, Israel can continue to act as it does.
    Dogsauce, Miss Caphat and frogwoman like this.
  10. 8ball

    8ball Up to something

    Well, true, for a long time they weren't, though it changed towards the end.

    God knows what would have happened if the whole world had kept up the support, though - it would have been incredibly more brutal.

    In this case it's not like the Palestinian people are in any position to disrupt things in that manner since the machinations of capital aren't dependent on them in the same way in the region, and Israel looks increasingly like it is only going to ever listen to America.
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  11. frogwoman

    frogwoman лягушкая женщина

    What was the prevailing view of South Africa before apartheid started to unravel by the way? Was there a hasbara-type industry devoted to it? My parents are South African and came to the UK as it was unravelling so I've no idea how it used to be viewed over here.

    It was a massive surprise to me when I learned there used to be anti-apartheid demos all over the UK.
  12. 8ball

    8ball Up to something

    I don't remember a time when the prevailing view here wasn't strongly condemnatory.
  13. SpackleFrog

    SpackleFrog Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts

    Think it was pretty much divided on racial lines - white Afrikaners and the Apartheid government sympathised with Israel and traded with them extensively, the ANC always opposed the Israeli occupation and Mandela repeated this view often.
  14. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    In certain quarters, yes. At the same time, a fair old number of people emigrated to apartheid SA through the 60s and 70s in search of a better life in one of the UK's ex-colonies.

    ETA: Plus, of course, there was the 'Hang Mandela' wing of the Conservative Party. Attitude towards South Africa was a pretty good gauge of whether or not someone was a cunt, but there were a fair few cunts around.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
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  15. frogwoman

    frogwoman лягушкая женщина

    I wasn't talking about Israel, I was talking about the view of the west towards south Africa? IE was there a hasbara-type industry based on promoting it?
  16. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Sporting boycotts began in the late 60s, and from what I remember of the 70s/80s, there was never any pro-SA regime stuff in the media. People broke the boycotts/emigrated there/took the Sun City money despite the absence of any concerted campaign. Seems like the attitude of those breaking the boycotts was just 'we don't care'.
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  17. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    True. There are pockets of aboriginal peoples in SE Asia whose ancestors were driven off of the land by the current majority population. The Bantu in Sub-Saharan Africa historically pushed out peoples like the Khoisan. The Ainu have been marginalised in Japan.

    The answer in every case is the same, though. Recognition from the now-majority group of the existence and right to be there of the driven-out group. And wider social justice for all who live in a place. The answer has to be some kind of socialism, imo, which is what makes the moral predicament of the kibbutzim so poignant.
  18. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    um, where the fuck did minor fred go?
  19. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Perry clearly ninjaboy
  20. SpackleFrog

    SpackleFrog Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts

    Oh right, sorry. No - the Boers weren't part of a 'global community' in the same way Zionists are and didn't have the kind of relationship Israel does with the US or any other major country. There was a pretty mental propaganda machine within SA itself though.
    frogwoman likes this.
  21. SpackleFrog

    SpackleFrog Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts

    Worth remembering that a lot of Communist Party types from Britain carried out illegal activities in South Africa on behalf of the exiled ANC/SACP.
  22. SpackleFrog

    SpackleFrog Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts

    If you want a comparison for the PR machine, how about the early Hollywood Western's and their narrative in relation to Native American's etc? Beyond that I cant think of anything.
    frogwoman likes this.
  23. You saying Mark Perry is ninjaboy?
  24. Johnny Canuck3

    Johnny Canuck3 Well-Known Member

    Truly, a breathtaking oversimplification of the pre-contact history of North and South America. :eek:

    For instance:

    Both the Mi'kmaq and the Kwedech are 'aboriginal', as you say: which group has ancestral rights to the Gaspe Peninsula?

    Btw, the Kwedech - also known as the Mohawk, formed part of the Iroquois Confederacy; and as they moved west, they warred with and displaced other tribes, notably the Algonqian - all in the late pre-contact period.

    Historical events were thus occurring in the pre contact period that gave rise to inter - tribal land disputes. It wasn't all just a placid pastoral snapshot when Jacques Cartier et all happened upon the scene.
  25. Kalfindin

    Kalfindin Banned Banned

    Its not fascist because its a "democracy," its also capitalist, fascist states are corporate, but it is ultra-nationalist and sectarian.

    Its paranoid, inward looking and culturally isolated. I believe its culturally suffering from a collective psychosis, its reality and view of the word is based upon ww2, which was 69 years ago and its peoples isolated narrow view of their history, where they are taught victimhood along with racial supremacism, ie being an elect people above others.

    The whole fantasy/parody is only possibly while the USA funds it.

    To sum up its a nation based on the irrational, a persecution complex and hysteria which projects itself as ultra-nationalism and sectarianism.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
  26. chilango

    chilango *shrugs*

    I have very vague memories about a Hopi - Navajo dispute arising from the Navajos arrival into what was previously Hopi territory.

    Going further south one can look at the Aztec empire.
  27. toggle

    toggle wobbly

    not sure. but the blatent hypocracy of britain trying to tell the Boers to play nice and not take someone else's land didn't pass them by.

    A mentality that was already isolationist and stubbornly defending it's traditions, was then significantly worsened by the traumas of the war and the camps, and racial tensions were heightened by the british use of black soldiers against boer civilians. the full development of an isolationist, supremacist state needed the existing pre war conditions and the traumas of the war.
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  28. toggle

    toggle wobbly

    the only comparable point in that conflict was the support from Germany during the 1890s.
    SpackleFrog likes this.
  29. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Of course. But I think you might be playing a straw man here. Many of these problems disappear when you start thinking about social justice for everyone within an area. That's the problem with systems that are predicated on the primacy of private property.
  30. Johnny Canuck3

    Johnny Canuck3 Well-Known Member

    A straw man in response to what point, though?

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