Channel 4-What Really Happened in Gaza

[ymu]

Enlighten me

You're very ill-informed for someone so opinionated.
Israel bans use of human shields

 

[FridgeMagnet]

How do you know you're not just a brain in a vat and all this isn't being made up by a Hamas demon eh? eh????? YOU DON'T.

 

[frogwoman]

Enlighten me

there is a well documented pattern of idf soldiers in the occupied territories invading people's homes, barricading people into rooms and moving upstairs to take up sniper positions, using the rooms to watch televsion for days on end and leaving shit and grafitti in people's homes, in much the same way as has been documented in gaza in the last few days, blasting holes in walls and going from house to house

the use of civilian homes as military positions is the definition of a human shield

 

[laptop]

How do you know you're not just a brain in a vat and all this isn't being made up by a Hamas demon eh? eh????? YOU DON'T.

City of Lost Children

 

[denniseagle]

use of un guided munitions

what has that got to do with anything? you're arguing that attacks supposedly carried out by the worlds most moral army might just as easily be carried out by hamas fighters, ambulances shelled etc by hamas fighters tarnishing the name of the poor old innocent idf

that's a different thing to making any kind of statement on whether hamas target civilians or not (and i don't support hamas btw)

Guess every rocket/mortar munition launched from Gaza by
Hamas is targetted at military instalations/personel only then ?


Get real!

 

[denniseagle]

You're very ill-informed for someone so opinionated.
Israel bans use of human shields

Israel bans use of human shields and ? I take it that just because Israel has decided to do so Hamas does the same??

get real

 

[frogwoman]

what has that got to do with what i posted?

 

[denniseagle]

City of Lost Children

Oh how very droll ...................

 

[butchersapron]

What other right winger does paragraphs
like this on here. All the time

Up the gulls!

 

[frogwoman]

its like haiku, but not

 

[tangentlama]

who is it, butchers?
(not 'nuff syllabubbles for
haiku. i give up)

 

[butchersapron]

drinks or likesfish
they both do this all the time

Maybe someone with more time/interest could investigate.

 

[frogwoman]

rentonite maybe?

 

[butchersapron]

Too clever i think (sad as that may be)

 

[frogwoman]

 

[tangentlama]

SULEIMAN BARAKA: Yes. Thank you, first, for giving me this chance to talk to a American public. I was in my office. I received a call that there was a bombing in my area, and then, after a while, the bombing was my house, and then I lost communication with the family for ten hours. It was really very hard, at the emotional, psychological level, because I had known that there something happened, and I cannot follow up. Ten hours later, I knew that my son Ibrahim was critically injured and my mom was moderately injured when they bombed my house with a one-ton bomb and destroyed the house, injuring my son and my mom.
I lived a very, very hard time as a father who is far, who has lack of information. I don’t see my son, who was—I am preparing for him, to bring him to the United States to live here, to value diversity, to go to school, to make new friends. I was, you know, preparing for them to bring him here. And then, once in a sudden, I understand that my son is in critical condition then.
The other day, I got the news that, because his condition was critical, he was moved to Egypt for medication. Then, automatically, I just went to Egypt to follow up my son. One day after I arrived, they said that the brain can come again and he can be awakened, because he was in deep coma. There was a shrapnel in his right hand, brain and leg and hand, and a cut in the back. I stand by him, and there is no need to describe what the feeling of a father who is looking as his child dying.
January 5th, midday, I received a call from the doctor that my child passed away. It was really very hard to break in and very sad moment. Also, the sadness is accumulated when I could not go back to Gaza for the funeral and the condolences of my son, because Gaza is closed. And it’s only open for bringing into Egypt wounded and sending back dead in coffins. So, as a father, it was really a very hard difficulty.

My house is not a military base. Ibrahim is eleven years old. He doesn’t need F-16 jet fighters to kill him. My house roof was there for me and my children to use my telescope, not anti-aircraft missiles or rockets.
I have no language to express what I feel about this. Now, all our houses are destroyed. My family, I lost communication. I rarely have some, you know, with my family, because my daughter with my wife is at their grandpa’s. The other members of my family, I have no communication with. It’s really hard to break in, and I don’t know—sometimes I feel speechless. I cannot say, as a father, and when I look at the photo of my son, I cannot convince myself that I will never see him again. I lost my son, but I didn’t lose my inner peace. But how I can convince my son Daoud, who is five, who witnessed the bombardment of his house and the killing of his brother? Is that investment for hatred and violence and anti-violence?
I think Palestine and Gaza, especially, doesn’t need initiatives, talks, demonstrations. Palestine needs interference and a password to end all of this: end occupation. End occupation. End occupation. You eliminate the action, then there will never be reaction. Whatever is whatever the language describing the situation, the problem is in the occupation. When the occupation is ended, and it—there is legitimacy. There is United Nations resolutions. There is everything. It’s very easy. It needs a will, and it needs those people who are wisdom-guided, not power-guided. Civilization of power will not work forever. Power of civilization always bring in and bring about prosperity, peace, coexistence. It’s enough of everything for everybody.

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/16/palestinian_father_in_us_recounts_how

 

[tangentlama]

From the same link:

RASHID KHALIDI: I mean, what can one say when one hears that kind of thing? There are 1,100 stories like that.

 

[denniseagle]

what has that got to do with what i posted?

Do you have any concept of how Hamas et al operate?

Suicide bombers attacking pizza parlours = military targets??

Suggest a little lateral thought about possible 'propoganda' use of 'incidents'

The French were driven from indochina not just by force of arms but primarily by public opinion.
Constant negative reporting coupled with selective use of photographs and TV footage turned public opinion in France against the war.


The Americans also faced the same problem.
They were constantly fighting with one arm tied behind their back.

Be honest now .
Given the military power that Israel posseses do you honestly believe that Gaza would exist if Israel metaphorically 'took the gloves off?'

No matter what Israel does it cannot win with some people.

If the arabs laid down their arms = probable peace

If Israel did the same = 5 million dead Israelis.

The IDF is ,despite what so many on here believe, a disciplined military force subject to rules of engagement and operating procedure.

Can you say the same about Hamas

 

[tangentlama]

It's denniseagle who has no idea how Hamas operate.
Israel's Lies
by Henry Siegman

Everyone seems to have forgotten that Hamas declared an end to suicide bombings and rocket fire when it decided to join the Palestinian political process, and largely stuck to it for more than a year. Bush publicly welcomed that decision, citing it as an example of the success of his campaign for democracy in the Middle East. (He had no other success to point to.) When Hamas unexpectedly won the election, Israel and the US immediately sought to delegitimise the result and embraced Mahmoud Abbas, the head of Fatah, who until then had been dismissed by Israel’s leaders as a ‘plucked chicken’. They armed and trained his security forces to overthrow Hamas; and when Hamas – brutally, to be sure – pre-empted this violent attempt to reverse the result of the first honest democratic election in the modern Middle East, Israel and the Bush administration imposed the blockade.

Israel seeks to counter these indisputable facts by maintaining that in withdrawing Israeli settlements from Gaza in 2005, Ariel Sharon gave Hamas the chance to set out on the path to statehood, a chance it refused to take; instead, it transformed Gaza into a launching-pad for firing missiles at Israel’s civilian population. The charge is a lie twice over. First, for all its failings, Hamas brought to Gaza a level of law and order unknown in recent years, and did so without the large sums of money that donors showered on the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority. It eliminated the violent gangs and warlords who terrorised Gaza under Fatah’s rule. Non-observant Muslims, Christians and other minorities have more religious freedom under Hamas rule than they would have in Saudi Arabia, for example, or under many other Arab regimes.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n02/sieg01_.html

 

[tangentlama]

Too clever i think (sad as that may be)

He's not read to the depths that we have.
Looks like his only info-source has been mainstream media.

Here you go, dennis. Bone up: http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8652640&postcount=167

 

[Spion]

drinks or likesfish

Not the latter. The punctuation isn't bad enough and not enough smileys

 

[frogwoman]

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200912011540287157.html

interesting ...

 

[denniseagle]

Just out of interest...........

If Hamas has brought a level of law and order unknown in recent years JUST WHO IS IT WHO KEEP FIRING UNAIMED ORDINANCE AT ISRAEL?
And more importantly WHY CANT THE SUPPOSED WONDERFUL AND ORDER BRINGING HAMAS STOP THEM??

 

[newharper]

Orly

The June 2008 Gaza Ceasefire

In an indirect ceasefire agreement signed on June 19, 2008, Israel and Hamas agreed to
cease all military activities in and around Gaza and to end the Gaza siege. This report
briefly outlines the implementation of that agreement in the lead up to the recent war.
Our analysis is based on publicly available data from UN sources.

1 – Cessation of military activities and the siege

In the first half of 2007 (prior to the Hamas takeover of Gaza), an average of 17
Palestinians were killed per month in Gaza.
1
During the entire period, a total of two
Israelis were killed in southern Israel
2
. In June 2007, Hamas took complete control of the
Strip, routing Fatah’s security forces. Soon after, Israel initiated a tight siege of the
territory and three months later, designated the Gaza Strip a “hostile entity.” Rockets into
Israel intensified as well as Israel’s attacks on the Strip. From July 2007 to June 2008, average monthly conflict-related fatalities in Gaza and its vicinity rose to 49 Palestinians,
while Israeli deaths for the whole period dropped to one
3
.
Hamas and Israel reached a ceasefire agreement on June 19, 2008. Though the exact
terms are disputed, the basic agreement was that Palestinians in Gaza would cease rocket
and mortar fire into Israel. In exchange, Israel would end targeted assassinations and
incursions into the Strip, as well as lift the siege of Gaza.

For the twelve months before the June 2008 ceasefire, an average of 402 projectiles
(including rockets and mortars) hit Israel per month. From July-October 2008, average
combined mortar and rocket fire fell to 12 projectiles per month and there were no Israeli
incursions into the Gaza Strip.

However, despite the 97% drop in attacks, the truce did not do much to ease the siege of
Gaza. Imports increased only marginally. In January 2007, 14,520 truckloads were
imported into Gaza. In the first half of 2007, on average, 11,176 commercial truckloads
were imported into Gaza on a monthly basis
4
. This average reflects pre-existing
restrictions on the movement of goods into Gaza. In particular, Israel further reduced imports into Gaza after the signing of the Mecca Agreement between the Palestinian
factions in February 2007, and the formation of the Palestinian national unity
government. From July 2007 to June 2008, on average, 2,353 commercial truckloads
were imported into Gaza, an 84% drop from imports in January 2007. Nothing was
exported5
. During the first four months of the truce, on average, 3,866 truckloads were
imported into Gaza on a monthly basis
6
. This was still only 27% of the amount of goods
entering in January 2007 (14,520 truckloads).

In the five months after the ceasefire, from June 19 to the end of October 2008, one
Palestinian was killed by Israeli fire while there were no Israeli fatalities. Israel attacked
the Strip on November 4th, killing 6 Palestinians and effectively ending the cease-fire.

PDF.

http://216.24.170.159/resources/pdfs/peace/conflict_resolution/Gaza_movement_and_fatalities_report%20FINAL%201%2022%2009.pdf.

 

[denniseagle]

What cease fire then?

So between June 2007 when Hamas took 'complete control of the strip' and June 2008 an 'average' of 402 'projectiles' PER MONTH hit Israel.
402 x 12 = 4824 launches of 'projectiles' and no one in Hamas noticed???
That is more than 13 attacks each and every day for a year!!!

Not very efficient in actually policing the population were they or perhaps stopping the attacks wasn't high on their list of priorities at the time, settling old scores with Fatah seemed more important somehow.

After the 'cease fire' ONLY 12 per month hit Israel.

Can't anyone even acknowledge that a cease fire cannot be called a CEASE FIRE unless people stop shooting COMPLETELY?

The old fall back of quoting the figures of those killed and wounded from either side in an attempt to wrestle some form of 'justification' for the attacks falls flat when the simple question is asked and an HONEST answer is given in return.

Was it the intention, when launching whatever form of 'projectile' , to kill or maim Israeli citizens?

The inability to kill is not for want of trying.

I do wonder what the consensus would be if, hypothetically everyone of the 4824 'projectiles' launched between June 2007 and June 2008 had killed just one Israeli citizen per launch?

Think about it...............................

 

[Spion]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[denniseagle]

DOH!

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Obviously not capable of any form of rational or logical reply.

4 legs good 2 legs bad ?

Perhaps the question was too difficult for you............

Or perhaps something you had never even considered.............

 

[laptop]

Obviously not capable of any form of rational or logical reply.

Glad to see you've achieved some kind of self-awareness.

 

[newme]

lol barely, hes clearly a fucking idiot

 

[nino_savatte]

So between June 2007 when Hamas took 'complete control of the strip' and June 2008 an 'average' of 402 'projectiles' PER MONTH hit Israel.
402 x 12 = 4824 launches of 'projectiles' and no one in Hamas noticed???
That is more than 13 attacks each and every day for a year!!!

Not very efficient in actually policing the population were they or perhaps stopping the attacks wasn't high on their list of priorities at the time, settling old scores with Fatah seemed more important somehow.

After the 'cease fire' ONLY 12 per month hit Israel.

Can't anyone even acknowledge that a cease fire cannot be called a CEASE FIRE unless people stop shooting COMPLETELY?

The old fall back of quoting the figures of those killed and wounded from either side in an attempt to wrestle some form of 'justification' for the attacks falls flat when the simple question is asked and an HONEST answer is given in return.

Was it the intention, when launching whatever form of 'projectile' , to kill or maim Israeli citizens?

The inability to kill is not for want of trying.

I do wonder what the consensus would be if, hypothetically everyone of the 4824 'projectiles' launched between June 2007 and June 2008 had killed just one Israeli citizen per launch?

Think about it...............................

You clearly haven't explored the origins of this or any similar conflict...have you?