Championship vs. Premiership

[bendeus]

Now, I'm certainly not counting my chickens before they're hatched; the Bluebirds are only a quarter of the way into the season, with 3 points in hand on the other teams, and their paper thin squad is already being badly stretched. Promotion is, however, more possible than it has been for a long time and the distinct possibility exists that we'll be playing against the might of Chelsea, Man U and Reading next season.

I have increasingly found myself wondering if that is really what I want. I love the Championship for the fact that, given a bit of luck and a fairly injury free season, anyone, even the most unfancied, have a chance of going up (see Reading, Watford and Crystal Palace in recent seasons). Most teams are only a couple of good signings and a decent manager away from a shot at the big time, and the league continues to confound the bookies - it is still more than possible for the bottom team to beat the top. Ticket prices are still reasonable and many grounds, Ninian Park included have that beat up, pies and Bovril charm that smack of a bygone age.

Then there's the Premiership. Populated by giant egos and even bigger budgets. With bank balance busting ticket prices which limit all but the corporate prawn sandwich munching brigade to just a few visits per season to the souless chrome and concrete superstadia that host matches. Lesser teams have fuck all chance of winning anything save for the Worthless Cup or a dogfight for the scraps of Europe, and since when has finishing sixth been any kind of cause for celebration? The chances of a smaller team ever bucking the trend and winning the league have been ground out of existence by the astronomical budgets available to the superclubs, and most resign themselves either to a permanent state of mid-table mediocrity or to yo-yoing down to the Championship and back up a la West Brom. Let's not forget also the financial damage that promotion can have on a team, with the likes of Barnsley showing how trying to compete with the big boys and spending to stay up can have catastrophic effects.

In summary, while I'd love to see Cardiff win the league this year I am far less sure whether I'd like to see them go up. I know it sounds daft but there it is. Any comments?

 

[ch750536]

For me any sport is about competition. I stooped taking an interest in F1 when there was no competition and I'm getting seriously close with the prem.

 

[bendeus]

Exactly. What's the point of taking an interest in a competion with over 20 comptetitors but only 2 capable of winning it?

 

[DRINK?]

Exactly. What's the point of taking an interest in a competion with over 20 comptetitors but only 2 capable of winning it?

I dunno at the mo would say 3 teams are capable, then you have your seperate divisions within the league, relegation / Europe which often gets as interesting as the whole thing....in theory Chelsea have taken things to a stupid level though they defo aren't caning teams as half a bill would suggest. Saying that they more than likely will grind it out though even with many of there own fans people view it as a hollow victory

 

[SubComandante]

I have to admit I've grown fond of the football league as a competition with regards to the play-offs and the lack of dominance by an elite few.

At the same time however, I am fed up of playing in League one, although I have been to some new grounds and met some great fans (and, erm, interesting stadiums!) along the way. I'll be honest, I preferred it in the Premiership - even if we're battling at the bottom. Its only normal to want your club to be playing at the highest level possible. I'm still vaguely optimistic Forest can get back to the premiership at some point but we're still a long way off.

 

[ChrisFilter]

I'm quite enjoying the Chamionship this year, certainly more entertaining than the Prem.

However, having experienced both, there are plus points to being in the Prem. More in the media about your club, match of the day, armchair fans don't look confused when you say you support Leicester City, panini stickers and your team is in computer games.

 

[bendeus]

I dunno at the mo would say 3 teams are capable, then you have your seperate divisions within the league, relegation / Europe which often gets as interesting as the whole thing....in theory Chelsea have taken things to a stupid level though they defo aren't caning teams as half a bill would suggest. Saying that they more than likely will grind it out though even with many of there own fans people view it as a hollow victory

I take your point, but fundamentally the setup is disposed towards the big boys (and this year there are only 2, IMHO) actually winning it and the rest fighting it out for the Blankety Blank chequebook and pen. It shows how bad it has got when the only aspiration a 'lesser' team has is to finish fourth and thus get the coveted Champions League playoff spot. The fact that clubs such as Cardiff are actually capable of winning the championship on a tiny budget would indicate that it is a far more engrossing and genuine competition than its larger cousin.

 

[bendeus]

However, having experienced both, there are plus points to being in the Prem. More in the media about your club, match of the day, armchair fans don't look confused when you say you support Leicester City, panini stickers and your team is in computer games.

I know what you mean, which is why many fans of football league clubs also have a second Prem side that they follow. I also agree that the standard of football is far higher day in, day out and that you are able to see the greats of the modern game plying their trade at your own ground (often while they stuff your band of struggling journeymen 5-0)

But football ain't all about glitz, glamour and publicity. It's also about driving rain, shitty pies and good old tribalism. Do Chelsea fans feel any more elation at their side getting the Prem title than Reading fans did when their unfancied team gained promotion? Rather less so, I'd suspect. Starting a season knowing your team has a chance of winning something rather than hoping it'll end up a bit above fifteenth but a bit below sixth is what it's all about, and for that I'd go for the Championship any day.

 

[DRINK?]

I take your point, but fundamentally the setup is disposed towards the big boys (and this year there are only 2, IMHO) actually winning it and the rest fighting it out for the Blankety Blank chequebook and pen. It shows how bad it has got when the only aspiration a 'lesser' team has is to finish fourth and thus get the coveted Champions League playoff spot. The fact that clubs such as Cardiff are actually capable of winning the championship on a tiny budget would indicate that it is a far more engrossing and genuine competition than it's larger cousin.

Agreed and whatever whoever wins is going to one of the uber rich clubs....though to a certain extent much of arsenal and man utd's success has come from blending cheap / free youngsters with costly counterparts.

Yup in theory the championship is more intriguing at the start of the season though the standard of football is miles off...i serously don't think there is much difference between the lower proffessional leagues and semi pro....obviousley a bit and a huge gulf in fitness

 

[bendeus]

i serously don't think there is much difference between the lower proffessional leagues and semi pro....obviousley a bit and a huge gulf in fitness

I dunno. Having followed City from the old fourth up to the new championship I would say there is a proper gulf in class. There are a lot of 'big' teams in the Championship at the moment, as there are a number of 'big', lower premiership class players. The fact that defences are worse also allows slightly less gifted strikers to score some absolute spectaculars that would grace an Arsenal move. It's all relative, I suppose.

 

[DRINK?]

I dunno. Having followed City from the old fourth up to the new championship I would say there is a proper gulf in class. There are a lot of 'big' teams in the Championship at the moment, as there are a number of 'big', lower premiership class players. The fact that defences are worse also allows slightly less gifted strikers to score some absolute spectaculars that would grace an Arsenal move. It's all relative, I suppose.

I'd take the championship out of that observation though as you go further down the standard drops significantly...I was always told if I'd grown taller I'd have made it ( how many people been told that ) though from what I see people may have been right...I don't see enough these days to make a judgement I guess though what I do see is not that impressive.

 

[bendeus]

I'd take the championship out of that observation though as you go further down the standard drops significantly...I was always told if I'd grown taller I'd have made it ( how many people been told that ) though from what I see people may have been right...I don't see enough these days to make a judgement I guess though what I do see is not that impressive.

Awww, It's lower league football that allows skill-free heads on poles such as Leo Fortune-West to shine. There has to be somewhere for them to go

 

[DRINK?]

aye and to be honest if they've stuck it out when kids with tonnes more ability have got waylaid by booze, birds and drugs ( not that all these lower league players are paragons of virtue ) then fair play....it's what english football is all about... meathead up front, 2 meatheads at the back and horrible little midfielders pinching, stamping giving it the big one, played in the pouring rain in front of a half empty stadium....have to admit in ways it will alwyas be better than the prem

 

[Brockway]

Now, I'm certainly not counting my chickens before they're hatched; the Bluebirds are only a quarter of the way into the season, with 3 points in hand on the other teams, and their paper thin squad is already being badly stretched. Promotion is, however, more possible than it has been for a long time and the distinct possibility exists that we'll be playing against the might of Chelsea, Man U and Reading next season.

I have increasingly found myself wondering if that is really what I want. I love the Championship for the fact that, given a bit of luck and a fairly injury free season, anyone, even the most unfancied, have a chance of going up (see Reading, Watford and Crystal Palace in recent seasons). Most teams are only a couple of good signings and a decent manager away from a shot at the big time, and the league continues to confound the bookies - it is still more than possible for the bottom team to beat the top. Ticket prices are still reasonable and many grounds, Ninian Park included have that beat up, pies and Bovril charm that smack of a bygone age.

Then there's the Premiership. Populated by giant egos and even bigger budgets. With bank balance busting ticket prices which limit all but the corporate prawn sandwich munching brigade to just a few visits per season to the souless chrome and concrete superstadia that host matches. Lesser teams have fuck all chance of winning anything save for the Worthless Cup or a dogfight for the scraps of Europe, and since when has finishing sixth been any kind of cause for celebration? The chances of a smaller team ever bucking the trend and winning the league have been ground out of existence by the astronomical budgets available to the superclubs, and most resign themselves either to a permanent state of mid-table mediocrity or to yo-yoing down to the Championship and back up a la West Brom. Let's not forget also the financial damage that promotion can have on a team, with the likes of Barnsley showing how trying to compete with the big boys and spending to stay up can have catastrophic effects.

In summary, while I'd love to see Cardiff win the league this year I am far less sure whether I'd like to see them go up. I know it sounds daft but there it is. Any comments?

Totally agree with you - I fecking hate the Prem. And as you suggest it's an irony that I want my team to get there. For what? To hopefully tread water in lower-mid table for the next ten years? Absolute nightmare. I reckon if Cardiff win promotion we should be the first team in history to elect to not bother.

The gentrification is already happening - groundsharing with the egg; six games pencilled in for the MillStad - look lovely on Sky won't it .

When we sing: "Chelsea, here we come, Chelsea, Chelsea, here we come" there's a vague air of us scumbags are coming to your poncey ground and we're going to scare the shit out of you. Which I quite like. But the truth is we are just going to be co-opted into the whole Prem bullshit thing too. It's tragic mun.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

For me I prefer West Ham being in the Prem. Although we are never going to really compete with the really big 5-6 teams, I still think we are underachieving if we are in a lower division. And the other point for me personally living in China, I ahve no way of watching us, ever, if we are not in the Prem...

 

[kained&able]

cardiff have to be officilly let into the prem anyway don't they. The forign little bastards

Umm bolloocks to you all though. There is no point in being in a 2nd tier if you can get into the first, you want to play against the best players and see what your team is actully worth, you can't do that in the championship. I would always want my club to have a chance at acheiving success and like it or not that means being in the prem.

I'm also getting pissed off with this two teams can win mentality first of all thats always basicly been the case. One team dominates one or two look capable of catching the rest can't win the league but they danm sure can make things intresting by nicking results from the bigger clubs(west ham took 4 poins off arsenal last year for example) and besides there is plenty more to fight for in terms of europe and the cups.

Ask any of the recently promoted teams which they perfer being in. The only real excuse for syaing you wanna stay in the championship is that you think your team is going to bottle it.

dave

 

[bendeus]

The only real excuse for syaing you wanna stay in the championship is that you think your team is going to bottle it.

dave

Utter rubbish. It's got sod all to do with thinking my team is going to 'bottle anything', though I do admit that they will probably struggle to stay in the Prem. I feel I've outlined my 'excuse' fairly clearly - I'm not a fan of a competition that is not, er...competitive, I'm not a fan of being denied the access to my team's home games I currently enjoy due to exorbitant ticket prices and I'm not a fan of the all seated, atmosphere-free soccerball multicomplexes that prevail at the top level. I still maintain that I'm able to derive as much if not more enjoyment from the fact that my team could actually win the league they're in rather than knowing there's no chance of them doing so and hoping for a route in to Europe via the Intertoto cup as my season's highlight.

I'm not saying I would boycott matches in the Prem, or that I wouldn't enjoy them, but I am saying that I probably won't get any extra value from them.

 

[bendeus]

Utter rubbish. It's got sod all to do with thinking my team is going to 'bottle anything', though I do admit that they will probably struggle to stay in the Prem. I feel I've outlined my 'excuse' fairly clearly - I'm not a fan of a competition that is not, er...competitive, I'm not a fan of being denied the access to my team's home games I currently enjoy due to exorbitant ticket prices and I'm not a fan of the all seated, atmosphere-free soccerball multicomplexes that prevail at the top level. I still maintain that I'm able to derive as much if not more enjoyment from the fact that my team could actually win the league they're in rather than knowing there's no chance of them doing so and hoping for a route in to Europe via the Intertoto cup as my season's highlight.

I'm not saying I would boycott matches in the Prem, or that I wouldn't enjoy them, but I am saying that I probably won't get any extra value from them.

Edit: and we can fight for cups from exactly where we are, thanks.

 

[bendeus]

For me I prefer West Ham being in the Prem. Although we are never going to really compete with the really big 5-6 teams, I still think we are underachieving if we are in a lower division. And the other point for me personally living in China, I ahve no way of watching us, ever, if we are not in the Prem...

I can see why as a Hammer you feel that way - you're a top flight club who are used to being at or around the summit. Given Cardiff's position(s) in the league during the time I've supported them I feel we're practically in the stratosphere right now, and living close to the city I'm able to see games whenever I want.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I can see why as a Hammer you feel that way - you're a top flight club who are used to being at or around the summit.

Well kind of. We're more used to getting about halfway up the mountain, hitting gale force winds, being blown back a considerable distance down, climbing back up, having to sell our best sherpas to a rich Japanese businessman who is helicoptering it up to the top (he probably won't use them but hey, it's good to show off), getting lost, discovering our tour leader is a complete imbecile who was reading the map wrong, finding the right path again, getting some way up before finding that three sherpas have suffered nervous breakdowns and have gone off to live in a monastery in Lhasa.

 

[bendeus]

Well kind of. We're more used to getting about halfway up the mountain, hitting gale force winds, being blown back a considerable distance down, climbing back up, having to sell our best sherpas to a rich Japanese businessman who is helicoptering it up to the top (he probably won't use them but hey, it's good to show off), getting lost, discovering our tour leader is a complete imbecile who was reading the map wrong, finding the right path again, getting some way up before finding that three sherpas have suffered nervous breakdowns and have gone off to live in a monastery in Lhasa.

....and then learning the shocking news that your ex-players eat human flesh....

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

....and then learning the shocking news that your ex-players eat human flesh....

 

[stavros]

For me any sport is about competition. I stooped taking an interest in F1 when there was no competition and I'm getting seriously close with the prem

What this man said.

Another thing which the top division has which the others don't so much is horrendous flouting of the rules, eg. diving, etc. Whether this is due to the influx from abroad over the last 15 years is a matter for debate but there are few things I like in football more than a good, hard but fair tackle, which is a more and more rare sight in the Premiership these day because refs seem to think, in part due to play-acting, that man goes down = must be a foul.

 

[bendeus]

Interestingly, Paul Jewell has weighed in with his own take on the debate,

"Football in the Premiership is in danger of becoming too stale.

"We know who's going to win the league - it will be one of three teams - and gone are the days when a Watford, Ipswich or Nottingham Forest went close.

"Success used to be winning a trophy. Now success is measured by staying in the league. It's the reality for most clubs.

"We are all looking over our shoulders. Our gates have been hit, but we picked up so many extra people last season that it was inevitable. The ones who are with us now will stay.

"But I look at other crowds and most of them are down.

"Bolton are about three or four thousand short and they are third in the league - I know Sam Allardyce is scratching his head about it."

Jewell backs up his argument that competition breeds big attendances by pointing to the Championship where there are several boom clubs bringing in 20,000-plus followings.

He said: "There are some massive clubs in the Championship and everybody is excited because they have a chance of getting out of there.

"Sunderland's gates are higher than when they were fighting for their lives in the Premiership.

"I remember Glenn Hoddle telling me when he was at Wolves that you were probably better off being a top-six side in the Championship every year rather than going into the Premiership."

Wigan are planning to drop their prices for some games, a move that Blackburn tried last week to great effect for the derby with Bolton and even Liverpool used a similar scheme for their Carling Cup clash against Reading.

Jewell is all for the idea and said: "There is no atmosphere from empty seats.

"We need supporters, we need them to be vociferous and passionate. The game is dead without them."

My bold. Particularly interesting what Hoddle had to say, I thought.

link

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

YEah but that's partly because there are certain smaller clubs - Bolton, Reading, Wigan, in particular - that have small followings but have for one reason or another done quite well recently, but a few pretty big clubs like leeds, forest, ipswich, wolves, sunderland, have been in the doldrums a fair while.

 

[Skimix]

Must admit I preferred it when we were in the championship (and that not just cos we've lost 8 on the trot now)...there were some great games with cracking atmosphere...Millwall was always a laugh...back up to the Prem now and we've got the club banning loads of people this week for standing...another PR coup by the west ham board given our current run of form.