Challenge disability benefit reforms: national conference 15/10/05 in Sheffield

[tbaldwin]

What exactly do you mean by "encouraged" tbaldwin?

Do you mean they should have their benefits cut on the assumption that they will take up non-existent jobs, or jobs they physically aren't able to do, which won't happen, and then an already marginalised section of society will be further marginalised and impoverished?

Do you mean they should be subjected to regular interviews with job centre plus staff, most of whom are totally clueless about disability issues but brilliant at patronising?

Do you mean that they will receive appropriate advice, financial and other support for (re)training, they will then receive adequate support and ongoing backup in relation to disability issues within the workplace?

Options 1 and 2, which I'm guessing are the kind of "encouragement" you're thinking of, are just a matter of cutting costs. Option 3, which might actually be effective, would cost *more* money in the short term, rather than save it.

Putting aside the usual lies and hysteria from others on here i will try and answer best as i can.
Encouraged, Look at a gradual way of getting back to work which means a more flexible benefits system. People on IB can earn £78 a week which is a lot better than those stuck on JSA.
But the benefit sytem discourages people from taking a chance on work.
This increases long term poverty and isolation.

Loads of people on IB can and should work.

Loads of Job centre staff are crap but there some good ones especially DEAs
Im not talking about cutting costs for the sake of it but keeping so many people who could work on IB is a shit idea.

People on here just jumping to their usual conclusions on Blair etc are boring and have very limited understanding of the issues.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So speaketh tbaldwin, man of the people.

As for "lies and hysteria", if anyone has written "lies and hysteria" then why don't you rebut them instead of resorting to the usual broad-brush smear jobs?

I'll tell you why, because you're full of shit paisan full of shit.

 

[tbaldwin]

And as I've said ad fucking infinitum, if you're going to propose that "loads of people" on Incapacity Benefit "could and should work", then you also have to make some sort of proposal as to how you would do it.
The problem is that good people such as yourself only ever come out with the generality, you never engage with what it would actually involve, and how, in many cases, the "powers that be" would have to accept that employment, in many cases, would have to be tailored to the needs of the long-term sick or disabled person rather than the person having to attempt to function outside of their abilities to suit the employer.
As you say, the jobs market is increasingly competitive, and it looks increasingly like the "jobs" that the long-term sick and disabled are going to be shoe-horned into will be "make-work" subsidised by govt. What an excellent use of tax-payers' money, subsidising business even more.

And you base that massive assumption on...?

Really amusing The conscience of a Nation at it again.
What a truly lovely person you must be...

Good person like me just comes out with the generality and you base that massive assumption on what?

If you knew me you might have a point,but you dont.

So you make the stupid assumption that i know nothing about people on IB.

Loads more projects are working with people on Incapacity Benefit.
In the London borough i work it used to be 2 or 3 now its more like 30.
If you dont even know that you really dont know half as much as you like to pretend do you.

Loads more could be done to tailor Jobs to peoples abilties. The problem ive said loads of times is a lot of money has gone to MC parasites who really have no idea and then just come out with trendy shit like you.
About how the govt has really made no difference.
But the reason so little difference is made is down to people like them.

 

[redsquirrel]

So speaketh tbaldwin, man of the people.

and he's a socialist too you know!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Really amusing The conscience of a Nation at it again.
What a truly lovely person you must be...

Ooh, another snide dig. How surprising.

Good person like me just comes out with the generality and you base that massive assumption on what?

If you knew me you might have a point,but you dont.

So you make the stupid assumption that i know nothing about people on IB.

Actually I remember that said you used to "work in the field", which is why I find your starry-eyed shit-shoveling on behalf of new Labour all the more bewidering.

Loads more projects are working with people on Incapacity Benefit.
In the London borough i work it used to be 2 or 3 now its more like 30.
If you dont even know that you really dont know half as much as you like to pretend do you.

Another assumption from Urban75's foremost working class hero.

Loads more could be done to tailor Jobs to peoples abilties. The problem ive said loads of times is a lot of money has gone to MC parasites who really have no idea and then just come out with trendy shit like you.

How sad. Attempting to tie me in with "middle class parasites".
The money wouldn't "go west" if the department of government responsible for it put checks and balances in place or even learned from past mistakes, but oh no. It's the TEC farrago all over again.
As for "trendy shit", that's just another of your nonsense catchphrases that you hurl around when you can't muster a decent argument (which is probably why you spend most of your energy mouthing those catchphrases, come to think of it).
Still, carry on makingexcuses for the govt. It's pretty much all you're good for. You're certainly no use to the working class.

About how the govt has really made no difference.
But the reason so little difference is made is down to people like them.

That's right, it's always someone elses' fault, isn't it?

 

[tbaldwin]

That's right, it's always someone elses' fault, isn't it?

I would say it's the fault of smug liberals like you.
Its so much easier to blame it all on a tiny minority of people,rather than accept the problem goes a whole lot deeper than that.
This govt has poured in billions more into socially useful projects. But the major problem is people like you bewildered that anyone could break ranks and tell the truth as they see it.
And the way i see it as someone who works in that field is that there loads of parasites who are basically just taking the piss.
To be honest the Politicians i have met have generally come across a lot better than most people who work in the Public or Voluntary sector.

 

[ViolentPanda]

and he's a socialist too you know!

Yep, he's a socialist and I'm (by implication) apparently a middle-class parasite.

For some strange reason I find myself doubting that any socialist who understands what the appelation actually means would view our very own working class hero as a comrade.

 

[tbaldwin]

Still, carry on makingexcuses for the govt. It's pretty much all you're good for. You're certainly no use to the working class.

Excellent VP. Kind of sums you up... Why dont you tell us how much use you are to the Working Class?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I would say it's the fault of smug liberals like you.

Right, I'm a "smug liberal" because I disagree with you.
What a joke.

Its so much easier to blame it all on a tiny minority of people,rather than accept the problem goes a whole lot deeper than that.

Politicians are elected to represent the interests of their constituents. Do you believe that in this policy they are doing that?
If policymakers (i.e. the politicians) fuck up then who do you think the buck should stop with?

This govt has poured in billions more into socially useful projects. But the major problem is people like you bewildered that anyone could break ranks and tell the truth as they see it.

Don't flatter yourself, you haven't/don't "break ranks". How could you when you're mouthing the state consensus on the subject?
As for being "bewildered", the only thing that bewilders me is how a rightwinger like yourself can label themself a "socialist".

And the way i see it as someone who works in that field is that there loads of parasites who are basically just taking the piss.

You're convinced of this and yet as far as I'm aware, you''ve never actually presented anything more than your ramblings to support your contention, have you?
I actually agree that there are parasites who bleed the system dry, they're called "consultants" and "advisors", but I can actually (given a couple of days to assemble my sources) show decent evidence to support that contention, and until you start doing that rather than mouthing off I'll continue to treat your rightwing drivel with the contempt I believe it deserves.

To be honest the Politicians i have met have generally come across a lot better than most people who work in the Public or Voluntary sector.

You mean they're more your "kind of people"?

 

[tbaldwin]

Your ignoring all the extra govt spending. Very easy to have a go at consultants.You always go for the easy options. Playing to the gallery of the parasites.
You keep repeating that i'm a right winger but i beleive in a massive redistribution of wealth and power. Is that right wing?????????

The truth is that you just want to blame politicians but the problem goes a lot deeper.
Your shallow thinking is of no use to anyone.
I would love to see some Middle Class twat stand against Blunkett in the next election,be good to see how well their Liberal views would go down with the electorate....
It could be you.....

 

[ViolentPanda]

Excellent VP. Kind of sums you up...

Does it really?
Why aren't I surprised that you have issued another of your sweeping judgements?
Could it be because I know you're unable to actually argue the point so resort to sweeping judgements in lieu of argument?

Why dont you tell us...

Us? That'd be you and the couple of other Urbanites who have a problem with people claiming welfare benefits, would it?

...how much use you are to the Working Class?

Currently not much, except as an occasional irritant to the political classes and civil service.
I've done plenty of union work, including being a rep/shop steward in two different unions, but I suspect you disapprove of trade unionism as much as you disapprove of benefits claimants.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Your ignoring all the extra govt spending. Very easy to have a go at consultants.You always go for the easy options. Playing to the gallery of the parasites.

So who do you suggest I target, the tiny minority of Incapacity Benefit claimants who claim fraudulently? That doesn't account for anywhere near the volume of money sucked out of the system by the professional classes, and you know it.

You keep repeating that i'm a right winger but i beleive in a massive redistribution of wealth and power. Is that right wing?????????

You keep asserting that you believe in a "massive redistribution of wealth and power", but apart from towing the new Labour line on money for schools and hospitals, you've had nothing to say.
If you're a follower of the policies of a centre-right party (as you are) then you must, therefore, be "rightwing".

The truth is that you just want to blame politicians but the problem goes a lot deeper.
Your shallow thinking is of no use to anyone.
I would love to see some Middle Class twat stand against Blunkett in the next election,be good to see how well their Liberal views would go down with the electorate....
It could be you.....

Well, that wouldn't work, would it?
The middle class would never accept me because I speak with the wrong accent, and believe that class struggle and real equality is important, rather than so-called "equality of opportunity". The middle classes much prefer people like you who are (in the same way that they are) willing to sell their arses to the highest bidder, and even then they'll still look down their noses at you.
Bear that in mind when you're selling your values for a slice of the power.

 

[treelover]

btw, people here on Urban have often collobaratively created standard letters to M.P's/opinion formers, etc. Any chance of creating one about the proposed benefit reforms, blunketts outbursts, etc.


VP, others?

 

[tobyjug]

Loads of people on IB can and should work.

How the fuck do you know? Are you medically qualified and checked all of their medical records you fucking nazi.

 

[tbaldwin]

How the fuck do you know? Are you medically qualified and checked all of their medical records you fucking nazi.

Cos ive worked with 100s of people on IB. And have also been on IB myself.
The Nazis were people in Germany who believed in killing disabled people.
I believe in helping them back to work if thats what they want. You might notice a subtle difference between the 2 positions.

 

[tbaldwin]

Does it really?
Why aren't I surprised that you have issued another of your sweeping judgements?
Could it be because I know you're unable to actually argue the point so resort to sweeping judgements in lieu of argument?

Us? That'd be you and the couple of other Urbanites who have a problem with people claiming welfare benefits, would it?

Currently not much, except as an occasional irritant to the political classes and civil service.
I've done plenty of union work, including being a rep/shop steward in two different unions, but I suspect you disapprove of trade unionism as much as you disapprove of benefits claimants.

Sweeping judgements indeed....
Oh yes of course if i argue with you i must be against Trade Unions and anyone claiming Benefit.
You are a fucking plank.

 

[tobyjug]

Cos ive worked with 100s of people on IB. And have also been on IB myself.
The Nazis were people in Germany who believed in killing disabled people.
I believe in helping them back to work if thats what they want. You might notice a subtle difference between the 2 positions.

All I notice is your VERY shit attitude towards Incapacity Benefit claiments.

 

[tbaldwin]

So who do you suggest I target, the tiny minority of Incapacity Benefit claimants who claim fraudulently? That doesn't account for anywhere near the volume of money sucked out of the system by the professional classes, and you know it.
.

Too Bloody right i know it, but what is your point?

 

[tbaldwin]

All I notice is your VERY shit attitude towards Incapacity Benefit claiments.

You might think that people who actually know me,have a very different view. And that includes loads of people on IB.

 

[tobyjug]

You might think that people who actually know me,have a very different view. And that includes loads of people on IB.

I am very experienced in the shit attitude prevalent in those supposedly "helping" people on Incapacity Benefit.
It is why I will not attend any interviews/medicals without a witness.

 

[tbaldwin]

You keep asserting that you believe in a "massive redistribution of wealth and power", but apart from towing the new Labour line on money for schools and hospitals, you've had nothing to say.
If you're a follower of the policies of a centre-right party (as you are) then you must, therefore, be "rightwing".

.

Centre right party (playing to the gallery again)
I am critical of NL but most of the critics are tossers. I look at what people have to say on Migration or Education who accuse me of being right wing and have to laugh.

Most people on here just want cosy little whinges about the govt but have no credible ideas on any major issue.
But i guess the whole point of elitists is to write as many people off as possible.

 

[tbaldwin]

I am very experienced in the shit attitude prevalent in those supposedly "helping" people on Incapacity Benefit.
It is why I will not attend any interviews/medicals without a witness.

tobyjug i dont doubt that but to assume that i am pauline from royston vasey is er erm er correct.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Sweeping judgements indeed....
Oh yes of course if i argue with you i must be against Trade Unions and anyone claiming Benefit.
You are a fucking plank.

Given the amount of threads you've contributed too where you've started off spewing all sorts of bullshit about "scroungers" and only moderated your tone when pulled up about the crassness and inaccuracies of your claims, then presuming that you are against people who claim benefit isn't a sweeping judgement at all, it's perfectly well in line with views you have previously professed.
As for your stance on trade unionism, I said that I personally suspect that you would be against them, not that you are.
Learn to read you mardy cunt. I won't call you a plank as wood is a valuable resource, and shouldn't have to stand being compared with you.

 

[tobyjug]

tobyjug i dont doubt that but to assume that i am pauline from royston vasey is er erm er correct.

I don't need to assume what you are, it is evident from your contributions here. You and Victor Lewis-Smith would make a lovely couple. (I have been waiting for him to be found dead covered in wheelchair tyre marks for years).

 

[tbaldwin]

Given the amount of threads you've contributed too where you've started off spewing all sorts of bullshit about "scroungers" and only moderated your tone when pulled up about the crassness and inaccuracies of your claims, then presuming that you are against people who claim benefit isn't a sweeping judgement at all, it's perfectly well in line with views you have previously professed.
As for your stance on trade unionism, I said that I personally suspect that you would be against them, not that you are.
Learn to read you mardy cunt. I won't call you a plank as wood is a valuable resource, and shouldn't have to stand being compared with you.

Nice one. Cant actually remember saying too much about dole scum etc but have said a lot about parasites in work. Maybe you think i'm Pauline too?
Of course im not against all people on benefit you prize cunt. I claimed IB myself due to a diagnosis of terminal cancer but wanted to go back to work when i could. Because i love the Job i do which involves amongst other things helping people on IB back to work. I really like the people i work with and your cosy little character assanation of anyone you think might be slightly symathetic to NL shows just what a total twat you are.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Too Bloody right i know it, but what is your point?

You remarked (in your inimitable manner) thus: "Your ignoring all the extra govt spending. Very easy to have a go at consultants.You always go for the easy options. Playing to the gallery of the parasites.",
accusing me of grandstanding and going for the easy targets.

That is why I remarked "So who do you suggest I target, the tiny minority of Incapacity Benefit claimants who claim fraudulently? That doesn't account for anywhere near the volume of money sucked out of the system by the professional classes, and you know it."

That's the point.

You make sweping statements, I call you on them.

 

[tobyjug]

I claimed IB myself due to a diagnosis of terminal cancer but wanted to go back to work when i could. .

Lucky fucking you. There is a difference in wanting to work and being able to work. My doctor will block any attempt at me trying to get work, and has stated such at a tribunal.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Centre right party (playing to the gallery again)
I am critical of NL but most of the critics are tossers. I look at what people have to say on Migration or Education who accuse me of being right wing and have to laugh.

Most people on here just want cosy little whinges about the govt but have no credible ideas on any major issue.
But i guess the whole point of elitists is to write as many people off as possible.

Playing your "man of the people" tune again, I see.

 

[redsquirrel]

Too Bloody right i know it, but what is your point?

That we target them rather than those on IB. Just a thought, but you probably don't approve as it'll cause them all to leave Britain.

 

[tbaldwin]

Lucky fucking you. There is a difference in wanting to work and being able to work. My doctor will block any attempt at me trying to get work, and has stated such at a tribunal.

Well you strike me as an intelligent person who could do loads of Jobs. But a lot of Doctors are stuck in the dark ages i'm afraid. Like they imagine all Jobs are the same,they are part of the problem.