Donna Ferentes
jubliado
Have you read that site and seen who produces it?Plato1983 said:
Plato1983 said:
Chávez wins again - Whither Venezuela?
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JoePolitix
Gone
Donna Ferentes said:
Indeed. And Human Rights Watch aren't much better:
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1200
JoePolitix
Gone
Plato1983 said:
Well people can read both and decide which is more valid. Personally I think the Wilpert article blows HRW's criticisms out the water. But then, like you, I'm biased.
But seeing as you're so obviously concerned about "democracy" in Venezuela I'd like to what you think of the failed opposition candidate Rosales who signed a decree abolishing Venezuelan democracy in 2002 during the brief rightwing coup?
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
And your armed fascist site?Plato1983 said:
You are a very silly little boy.
Your website has a political slant and a interest in seeing Chavez stay in power.
HRW is not left or right, it only cares for civil liberty and democracy and is only critical of Chavez for his authoritarianism and not his socialist/populist policies in economics or social services, which even I would support.
Why can't Chavez just do the good things like his missions and help for the poor without the strongman stuff.
That was Pedro Carmona, who served as President of Venezuela from the 11th to the 14th of April 2002.
Rosales had nothing to do with the coup.
Besides, if the coup leaders were genuine in their statements, that they wouls rule for one year and then hold free elections where all candidates could contest freely, even a deposed Chavez and his MVB party, then a shame they did not succed.
Sometimes you have to have a coup to get back democracy, the same thing happened in Portugal in April 1974, when a civilian fascist regime was deposed and a year later the Portuguese junta held elections and left office.
But to all you people who speak of the coup in 2002, what about Chavez's own coup of Febuary 1992. Don't try and paint Chavez as some democrat when he himself admits that he wishes to be in power until 2031.
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
And your armed fascist site, Plato?
JoePolitix
Gone
Plato1983 said:
1. So by your analysis groups like HRW are beyond critical scrutiny?
2. Rosales did sign the Carmona Decree (named after Pedro Carmona who was imposed on the Venezuelan people as president during the coup). This document called for the dissolution of the Bolivarian Constitution and the National Assembly both of which had been legitimised through a referendum by the Venezuelan people. Rosales signed the decree as Governor of the state of Zulia despite the fact that the majority of Venezuelans supported the return of Chávez as president. He and his supporters don't deny this fact. So much for your 'democrat'.
3. Now the gloves come off - you think its a shame the rightwing coup against Chavez failed in 2002? No wonder you link to fascist websites.
4. The "coup" Chavez led in 1992 was off the back of a massive civilian uprising against the two party state that had drained the state coffers and forced an austerity program on Venezuela that left millions in abject poverty. Thousands of people were massacred in the streets. the bullet holes still riddel Caracas's barrios. The majority of Venezuelan's supported Chavez's campiagn in the military to organise a rebellion in conjunction with a popular revolt. When the campiagn failed and Chavez went to jail and became a national hero. A million miles away from the gang of Pinochetistas you support in other words.
Anyway that'll do from me. Now crawl back under your rock scum.
Nothing fascist about it at all, just a pro-democracy website of military officers who are guilty of nothing more than their objection to the incumbent President. They simply state they don't wish to carry out Chavez's orders and support him, they are not coup plotters.
They are the same as Israeli Defence Force (IDF) refusniks who refuse to carry out operations in occupied Palestine, an act of non-violent civil disobedience and nothing more.
And please get over the teenage sloganeering. Fascism is a ideology in it's own right and it's examples are Mussolini et al and the inter-war Europe.
These officers do not call for a corporatist state, a one party regime, state control over civil life etc...
Right-of-centre to right-wing some of these officers may be, but not fascist. Person's regime was the nearest Latin America came to fascism and even his political movement today is moderate and non-autocratic.
The idea that by opposing Chavez or even being critical of some of his policies means your a fascist is intellectual bankruptcy on your part and a sign that your unable to argue your case and instead resort to name calling in the manner of a 'radical and rebbelious' teenager would to his elders.
No, not at all.
But despite HRW being open to a critical analysis still means that your website is far from impartial, it does not even claim to be impartial itself. It is openly a website of the far-left, hence a strong political agenda.
HRW on the other hand has one main overiding interest, human rights.
It may have some bias, but it is not a political group with a set ideology and thus it is not in the business of supporting one system or ideology against another. I do agree hthat there are US backed groups that want Chavez out and have their own ends, but HRW is not in this category.
It was a coup for democratic restoration, hence it only strengthens Rosales's credentials as a democrat to support the pro-democracy events of April 2002.
The coup of April 2002 was in the same nature as the April 1974 Lisbon coup, one where the army was democratic and moved to restore freedom and remove an autocratic regime.
See my first reply, that website is not fascist.
Chavez's coup was not about the 1989 uprising, it took place three years after 1989.
It was a naked grab for power by Chavez and nothing more.
So what if prison made him poplar, Hitler led a failed coup in 1923 and went to jail, only to become popular after that.
Popularity does not mean your a supporter of democracy, many a dictator has had a big base of popular support.
Yep, can't argue your case so you resort to insults, fuck off you self righteous arrogant shit.
JoePolitix
Gone
Plato1983 said:
I've got better things to do than exchange posts with a piss weak troll of sub normal intelligence.
Now lug your sorry ass back to Miami where you can reside with your fellow fascists.
Oh yes, heaven forbid someone is not a hardline leftist, they must be a troll, I mean everyone is on the far-left aren't they, no other people exist do they.
And don't try and question my intelligence when you don't even have a proper grasp of the English language, go and buy a fucking dictionary and read up on what the word Fascist means rather than using for describing what you don't like.
Not that you had much of an arguement beforehand, I would not go around calling others piss weak, wanker.
Not before you take your poor excuse of a human being back to Havana and you get on your knees with an open mouth so you can orally service uncle Fidel.
JoePolitix
Gone
Try harder chump
Plato1983 said:
ska invita
back on the other side
FOr an interesting read about the debates within the Cahvez party about how much power to give to the workers read this:
http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/lebowitz241005.html
CHavez' direction is not that mysterious:
nationalise oil industry
spend as much as possible on the people
do not cripple private business (the country is booming for the rich too)
increase education and political awareness amongst the people
slowly hand over power to the workers as much as possible.
http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/lebowitz241005.html
CHavez' direction is not that mysterious:
nationalise oil industry
spend as much as possible on the people
do not cripple private business (the country is booming for the rich too)
increase education and political awareness amongst the people
slowly hand over power to the workers as much as possible.
Plato, castro has just won a democratic election in his own country, if you use the bush/blair proprgranda and spin castro has not only used democratic ideals he has done it freely.
Which i find funny and ironic as i am reading forums and people like yourself who are very angry at castro winning and looking for any excuse to try and condem it.
Which i find funny and ironic as i am reading forums and people like yourself who are very angry at castro winning and looking for any excuse to try and condem it.
Ah, yes, don't waste time with elections, those Cubans are just to thick to know what is good for them, better let Fidel think for them.
If that is your stance, don't even dare to criticise Pinochet as your a dictator lover yourself and the fact Castro killed more pople and is more oppressive than Pinochet.
Castro's regime makes the military junta's of the region look like tea parties.
Well just imagine if our societies were mature instead of all this petty fighting we could trust a goverment or a leadership we didnt need to keep distrusting them.
We could leave them in charge put our efforts into improvements use all this energy to go forwards but i hope to see that one day.
We could leave them in charge put our efforts into improvements use all this energy to go forwards but i hope to see that one day.
No plato but you seem lost in this negativity this constant fear and reference to dictatorships.
My view is beyond that. I find democracy a complete waste of time. Its more about mistrust to goverment than anything else. And when you look at it the so called goverments shouting about democracy are the most corrupt in the world and when you compare that to countries like cuba who take a different approach the difference is drastic.
My view is beyond that. I find democracy a complete waste of time. Its more about mistrust to goverment than anything else. And when you look at it the so called goverments shouting about democracy are the most corrupt in the world and when you compare that to countries like cuba who take a different approach the difference is drastic.
That does sound like classical fascism to me, hey I'm not saying that as an insult either, as I am not refering to the typical idea of what people think of fascism (racism and bigotry etc...).
Your criticism of democracy seems to mirror that of classical fascism.
Anyways, what if the Cuban people don't like what Castro is doing, what if they want something different, it's their lives, why should they lose their right to their own way of life on the whim of a tyrant?
Also, what makes Castro such a perfect being so as to have absolute power, the man is as human and imperfect as us and prone to the same mistakes and fuck ups as us.
Why not go for governmentless stateless anarchy with people just having their own systems and way of life of their choosing???
No as i said you are lost in these political labels.
Look at cuba with a goverment like castro why the need to change it, he has turned the country around. Instead of removing the focus and positives just keep it there.
Plato you seem lost in this belief to have "democracy" at all costs. You can't see beyond it and this is the whole problem with the current belief system.
Also look at venezuela, chavez has won every election he has been in. So instead of constant elections which take up time resources and months of planning why the need chavez is going to win anyway just keep him in there to devote his time to the improvements of his country and people.
Look at cuba with a goverment like castro why the need to change it, he has turned the country around. Instead of removing the focus and positives just keep it there.
Plato you seem lost in this belief to have "democracy" at all costs. You can't see beyond it and this is the whole problem with the current belief system.
Also look at venezuela, chavez has won every election he has been in. So instead of constant elections which take up time resources and months of planning why the need chavez is going to win anyway just keep him in there to devote his time to the improvements of his country and people.
So the government would be self-appointed?marksl said:
The most mature people would naturally take over and everyone would simply do as they were told as they would recognise that the mature and wise people had all the right ideas?
The government would be nothing more than a glorified civil service, a professional body that just got on with its job and was overseen by other professional bodies that got on with theirs?
I don't see this is a very likely state of affairs as long as people disagree about so many things including political ideas and how to run a country, how to divide up wealth (ie tax/ownership) and how much freedom (versus legal restrictions) there should be in society.
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