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Central American Dictator Leaves Office - news from Cuba

I honestly do wonder what Cuba would be like today, sans fifty years of American seige and cross-spectrum attack (everything from a direct invasion attempt to biological warfare). A US nightmare probably, everything it has now in terms of education and healthcare, and not a repressive government. Unthinkable, enough to bring the pyramid-scheme of capitalism tumbling down across continents.
 
So instead of Wim Wenders making the film "Buena Vista Social Club" he could've done one on Daddy Yankee?

Sweet.:cool:

Puerto Rico is actually surprisingly nice, and surprisingly un-American--most people there don't speak English for example. They have a relatively high standard of living, but that's because everyone lives in the USA.
 
I read somewhere that Puerto Rico actually disbanded it's army and has no military forces... the angle of where I read that was that they decided that the leadership of an army would only be taken-over by the US and used against them Pinochet style, so best to do without one.
 
I read somewhere that Puerto Rico actually disbanded it's army and has no military forces... the angle of where I read that was that they decided that the leadership of an army would only be taken-over by the US and used against them Pinochet style, so best to do without one.

Are you sure that wasn't Costa Rica?

Also interesting to note how many Latin American countries have adopted the US dollar as official currency.

If the Miami exiles ever get back in power I'd bet that Cuba would adopt the dollar.
 
Puerto Rico.

Maybe, but at the time of the Revolution, there were important differences between the two countries.

In the 50s, Puerto Rico enjoyed a relatively thriving public life, stability and rapid economic growth. Cuba suffered the gangster-state of Batista, who promoted gambling tourism and pocketed the proceeds.

Had Batista remained in power much longer, the country may now more resemble that other Caribbean state with long-serving gangster-dictators, Haiti. I think it unlikely that it would be as bad as Haiti, but it is optimistic to say it would resemble Puerto Rico.

Whatever, speculation as to alternative histories have more to do with fiction than any other discipline.
 
I'd say the DR is probably the closest we have as an indication of how Cuba could turn out.

Of course neither the Fidelistas nor the Miami exiles would be satisfied with this outcome...
 
No, the transition to using the dollar as official currency.

Oh that. Yes, but as Cuba has long shown, using the US dollar to trade does not mean you in any way have to tow the US political line. They'd probably be better off adopting the Euro - a much stronger currency.
 
I honestly do wonder what Cuba would be like today, sans fifty years of American seige and cross-spectrum attack (everything from a direct invasion attempt to biological warfare). A US nightmare probably, everything it has now in terms of education and healthcare, and not a repressive government. Unthinkable, enough to bring the pyramid-scheme of capitalism tumbling down across continents.

Would probably most resemble Dominican Republic - ostensible (but corrupt) multi-party democracy with more poverty, guns, drugs than Cuba has in its current state; crappy infrastructure (DR has some of world's highest chargest for electricity); large numbers of migrants risking lives to emigrate to the US by raft (just like Cuba and Haiti today); an economy functioning but largely based on tourism and/or drugs and crime.

Not a pretty picture, especially for the poor, but it's pretty unarguable that the DR has freedom of expression, fairer laws (however they get enforced) and above all more opportunities ... and for those who have jobs in the DR there are salaries which actually allow for supporting life, unlike the wispy fantasy which passes for pay in Cuba (the equivalent of $4-$25 US a month ... OK, rent/utilities are rock-bottom cheap and health and education are free, but you can no more live on $4 a month in Cuba than you could in Mexico.)

one hint: there are cubans who escape by raft to the DR ... but NO dominicans (even the poorest) volunteering to sail away to Cuba...
 
Would probably most resemble Dominican Republic - ostensible (but corrupt) multi-party democracy with more poverty, guns, drugs than Cuba has in its current state; crappy infrastructure (DR has some of world's highest chargest for electricity); large numbers of migrants risking lives to emigrate to the US by raft (just like Cuba and Haiti today); an economy functioning but largely based on tourism and/or drugs and crime.

Not a pretty picture, especially for the poor, but it's pretty unarguable that the DR has freedom of expression, fairer laws (however they get enforced) and above all more opportunities ... and for those who have jobs in the DR there are salaries which actually allow for supporting life, unlike the wispy fantasy which passes for pay in Cuba (the equivalent of $4-$25 US a month ... OK, rent/utilities are rock-bottom cheap and health and education are free, but you can no more live on $4 a month in Cuba than you could in Mexico.)

one hint: there are cubans who escape by raft to the DR ... but NO dominicans (even the poorest) volunteering to sail away to Cuba...


One of the "advantages" the Dominicans have is the potential to earn enough money to move to the US.
 
Would probably most resemble Dominican Republic - ostensible (but corrupt) multi-party democracy with more poverty, guns, drugs than Cuba has in its current state; crappy infrastructure (DR has some of world's highest chargest for electricity); large numbers of migrants risking lives to emigrate to the US by raft (just like Cuba and Haiti today); an economy functioning but largely based on tourism and/or drugs and crime.

Not a pretty picture, especially for the poor, but it's pretty unarguable that the DR has freedom of expression, fairer laws (however they get enforced) and above all more opportunities ... and for those who have jobs in the DR there are salaries which actually allow for supporting life, unlike the wispy fantasy which passes for pay in Cuba (the equivalent of $4-$25 US a month ... OK, rent/utilities are rock-bottom cheap and health and education are free, but you can no more live on $4 a month in Cuba than you could in Mexico.)

one hint: there are cubans who escape by raft to the DR ... but NO dominicans (even the poorest) volunteering to sail away to Cuba...
Yes, I agree with this. Similarly, Haitians smuggle themselves into the DR to work.

Of course, the majority of Cubans don't live on $4 a month, but do something on the black market also - provide a service of some kind, take bribes, steal from work and sell the goods door-to-door, or where there are tourists they can provide tourist services. A job's worth is not so much wages as the opportunities it provides for theft or corruption.
 
... and for those who have jobs in the DR there are salaries which actually allow for supporting life, unlike the wispy fantasy which passes for pay in Cuba (the equivalent of $4-$25 US a month ... OK, rent/utilities are rock-bottom cheap and health and education are free, but you can no more live on $4 a month in Cuba than you could in Mexico.)

I was talking to a taxi driver here the other night who left his job in Cuba as engineer to become a Mexico City taxi driver...he was talking about the dangers he faced here...its a big bad city and can be pretty hairy for taxi drivers. But his salary in Cuba wouldn't even cover a beer a day.
 
Would probably most resemble Dominican Republic - ostensible (but corrupt) multi-party democracy with more poverty, guns, drugs than Cuba has in its current state; crappy infrastructure (DR has some of world's highest chargest for electricity); large numbers of migrants risking lives to emigrate to the US by raft (just like Cuba and Haiti today); an economy functioning but largely based on tourism and/or drugs and crime.

So you think a Cuba without repression would be... worse off?:confused:
 
So you think a Cuba without repression would be... worse off?:confused:

That's not what I said - read the second paragraph of my attempt to give an informed answer to your hypothetical question and I think you'll see where my sympathies lie.

All I was trying to point out, is that capitalism alone (say, in a situation where Castro and/or his Revolution hadn't happened) would not make Cuba into a prosperous paradise ... as it hasn't managed to do that in neighbouring islands/nations. Everyone makes a justified hullabaloo about the desperation which makes Cubans jump onto rafts to get to the US, but I would bet you that more smuggled Chinese and Mexicans die trying in any one year than Cubans. Cuba is not actually all that unique, or in a vacuum - it's just one (relatively small) nation among many trying to figure out how to live in the same hemisphere as the US without having to follow the US line on absolutely everything.

I am also wary of pronouncing on whether Cuba as a whole would be 'better off' or 'worse off', since in my reasonably extensive and firsthand experience of what Cubans themselves want, the sort of things I find indispensable(freedom of the press and judiciary, freedom of expression and assemby, freedom to form political associations) were actually NOT on their Big Want List. They didn't necessarily want to emigrate, they just wanted to be able to make a legal living.
 
That's not what I said - read the second paragraph of my attempt to give an informed answer to your hypothetical question and I think you'll see where my sympathies lie.

All I was trying to point out, is that capitalism alone (say, in a situation where Castro and/or his Revolution hadn't happened) would not make Cuba into a prosperous paradise ... as it hasn't managed to do that in neighbouring islands/nations. Everyone makes a justified hullabaloo about the desperation which makes Cubans jump onto rafts to get to the US, but I would bet you that more smuggled Chinese and Mexicans die trying in any one year than Cubans. Cuba is not actually all that unique, or in a vacuum - it's just one (relatively small) nation among many trying to figure out how to live in the same hemisphere as the US without having to follow the US line on absolutely everything.

I am also wary of pronouncing on whether Cuba as a whole would be 'better off' or 'worse off', since in my reasonably extensive and firsthand experience of what Cubans themselves want, the sort of things I find indispensable(freedom of the press and judiciary, freedom of expression and assemby, freedom to form political associations) were actually NOT on their Big Want List. They didn't necessarily want to emigrate, they just wanted to be able to make a legal living.

Ah, so you in fact misread my original question. If Castro's revolution had not led to 50 years of American seige, what would Cuba be like now.

Castro's Cuba would not for instance, have had to fear that the slightest move toward amore democratic system would immediately be subverted by US bag-men. You can't really run a democracy in a state of war, which is why all this War-onTerror crap is so useful in getting round what democracy we have in 'the West'.
 
I was talking to a taxi driver here the other night who left his job in Cuba as engineer to become a Mexico City taxi driver...he was talking about the dangers he faced here...its a big bad city and can be pretty hairy for taxi drivers. But his salary in Cuba wouldn't even cover a beer a day.

These measures are always hard to evaluate though. Normal beer is expensive there, but you can buy home brew on the street and drink it out of a plastic cup for about 2p. Having travelled throughout the Caribbean, I'd say the average standard of living is higher in Cuba than anywhere else except Puerto Rico. There is real hunger in Jamaica and the DR, in Haiti there is intermittent starvation. Not in Cuba.

And that doesn't even take into account the health and education systems, which are excellent. What you don't get in Cuba is a middle-class, and that's why people aren't moving there from the DR and similar places--migrants move because they expect a dramatic rise in their standard of living, which won't happen by moving to Cuba. But I'd far rather be poor there than anywhere else in the Americas--including the USA.
 
I am also wary of pronouncing on whether Cuba as a whole would be 'better off' or 'worse off', since in my reasonably extensive and firsthand experience of what Cubans themselves want, the sort of things I find indispensable(freedom of the press and judiciary, freedom of expression and assemby, freedom to form political associations) were actually NOT on their Big Want List. They didn't necessarily want to emigrate, they just wanted to be able to make a legal living.
This was certainly my experience when I lived there. A full belly comes first - for many, talk of freedom without it is meaningless. I would expect that once these basic needs have been satisfied - once it becomes possible again (as it was possible, just, before 1989) to make a legal living - demands for freedom will increase.

Like a great many on this site, I also value freedom of expression. It is a shame that many in the freer world do not value it more.
 
Not much different from the UK then. We can vote for three different types of turd one with a red rosette, or a blue rosette or a yellow rosette. Anything else just doesnt' count. :(

Not quite the same. You've had Edward Heath, Major, Thatcher, Blair, etc, during the time they've had Castro. There's been a fair bit of social change in UK during that period.
 
Not much different from the UK then. We can vote for three different types of turd one with a red rosette, or a blue rosette or a yellow rosette. Anything else just doesnt' count. :(

sighs....

the difference, KJ, is that nobody in the UK is going to lock you up for attempting to set up a Purple Rosette Party, or for standing in the street shouting about how you don't have any better options. Both of which would happen to you PDQ in Cuba were you to attempt to challenge the existing system.

The British system (like every political system anywhere) has huge limits and marginalises whole swathes of the people, but to compare the lack of options in Cuba to that in the UK is just blindly inaccurate.
 
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