TopCat
Putin fanboy
I would prefer people in black outside every recruiting office. Remember the dead and encourage the living not to join them.
Celtic fans sing IRA songs through minutes silence on Sat
- Thread starter strummerville
- Start date
I would prefer people in black outside every recruiting office. Remember the dead and encourage the living not to join them.
Andrew Hertford
Chocolate Jesus
Well done grit, it must have taken years of selective reading of history to have come up with bollocks like that.
mattie
missing in inaction
I'm not convinced that really helps commemorate the dead. Nor take into account the views of other nations.
editor
hiraethified
So you're saying that they were actually celebrating war and the death of soldiers and civilians at the cenotaph yesterday, yes?
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Well if a two minute silence is involved what's the issue?
It was a right ol' knees up and no mistake guv'nor!
mattie
missing in inaction
Erm, the fact it's not a collective commemoration. In fact, it's just people overtly criticising the people they're supposed to be commemorating.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
It's a parade embroidered throughout with triumphalism. A presence graced by all the rulers of the land.
Traffic stopped, a people cajoled to wear poppies, no mention of the rights or wrongs of the wars or of avoiding more wars. A big guilt tripping celebration of our war like abilities.
maybe they still smarting from the banner held up and flag display at Hamburg
lol
mattie
missing in inaction
The rulers of the land think it important to turn up to an event commemorating those killed in war. How is this triumphalist?
Exactly right there's no mention of the rights or wrongs, it's commemorating the dead. The idea that there should be any political message is appalling.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It is a political message in itself. It says, 'look at us - one big united family' and pretends that the dead didn't die in the interests of those same rulers.
Yeah, it's great!
With any luck loads more people will die in Afghanistan in the next 12 months so next year's celebration will be even bigger and better1!!
mattie
missing in inaction
Sorry, not getting what you're aiming at. Collective grief and commemoration isn't a political message, as far as I understand it.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I'm talking about our rulers turning up and pretending that there's been a unity of scarifice in pursuit of interests that we've all had an equal say in choosing and that this unity exists today and will extend into the future. One big unhappy family.
You said it was inherently unpolitical. i was showing how it's inherently political.
grit
an ugly force for good
Celebrating their memories and how "brave" they were I'd suppose.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
it's selective grief though - not grief for all the dead of wars or all those who have suffered therein - but a kind of service where "the nation" reminds itself of its sacrifices
mattie
missing in inaction
This really is why there should be no deeper reading into it.
People from our community died, we commemorate them. Collectively.
danny la rouge
Ninja swords for all disabled people
I have a feeling a fairly pointless exchange about the usage of "celebrate" is going on here. It means to mark or commemorate, and can be with rejoicing or with respect. Not necessarily both.
hth.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It's just not that simple. Anything that can be and used to sell a message (such as the one i've outlined above) is political. There's no point denying it. I've stood there enough times for two hours listening to talks from every section of the ruling class emphasising a common sacrifice that simply didn't happen. If you want that pure commeration you've mentioned then you're going to have to to take it away from these people yourself.
mattie
missing in inaction
Of course. We're not making any commentary on anything that has happened other than members of our community have lost their lives. Other communities do likewise.
mattie
missing in inaction
Are you saying that only those from the same social class should attend a commemoration for any given set of people?
I absolutely hate that idea, and as far as I see you are adding a political comment - the whole point of the commemoration is that it's apolitical and agnostic of race, religion, creed and class. We're all part of one community, and any one death is as tragic as any other. That's why we commemorate deaths collectively.
(ignoring Nelson's column and other bombast, of course)
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No i'm not. I'm saying that your imagined pure rememberance is being used by the ruling classes to impose a false image of the past and to extend that false image into the future in their own interests. They taking you for a mug. We're not all part of one community. The very idea is used to ensure that we're not, to hide internal conflicts.
And I'm sure those "other communities" would feel similarly aggrieved if their own commemorations were disrespected.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
this is the ideological sleight of hand. You equate - falsely - nation with "community". What makes our cross-class sense of "nationhood" more important than international solidarity between similarly disenfranchised "communties"?
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
the highland clearance was worse than the 1840s famine? how's that?
and what about the plantations, "to hell or connaught", the shipping of irish as slaves to barbados - i suspect you want to revisit the history textbooks, rubbershoes.
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
why'd you put this in football/sports when this isn't really about sport?
editor
hiraethified
I don't imagine any of us would have enjoyed being born into a Welsh mining village in the 1860s either.
http://www.welshcoalmines.co.uk/DisastersList.htm
grit
an ugly force for good
The clue is in the title.
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