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Caught on tape: police bid to recruit protester as spy

Had this been a member of the BNP that had been approached to become a tout would there be such outrage ? or should the police check with you to see which political views are in your view valid ?

The BNP have political views and some of it's members commit crime same goes for Plane Stupid. It's good to know that the rozzers have and are recruiting touts IMO.

Don't be obtuse. The police asked for Matilda Gifford to inform on political activity. That would no more be the job of the police with the BNP than with Plane Stupid. There is a valid debate to be had about informing on criminal activity. The police can't tell difference. Can you?
 
This is not an invalid argument*, but information about criminal activities was not what the "Glasgow" police were asking for:

"Feeding to us what's going on in the groupings - the actual dynamics of the groupings, who's saying what, who's doing what, who's running it, who's not running it."

Sorry, but where is your quote above from? I cant see it in any of the transcripts.
 
But there will always be something of a chilling effect anyway because of the nature of the acts being committed - either criminal (as with Stansted) or civil-legal (as Ryanair were threatening to do) and the likely consequences of that will (and should) cause people to think first. Are you really claiming that any "chilling effect" is wrong for a democracy?

Obviously, if a group is not doing these things then it is not really justifiable to have the state use paid informants against them, but in this case those acts had been committed and Police interest (including this, which looks very low-level) was to be expected, and should be understood in the context of those acts.

No what I'm arguing is that the 'chilling effect' should be taken into account when judging to what degree this behaviour by the police serves the public interest. In the US, free speech and hence to some degree, political dissent has constitutional protection. In the UK, it does not and as far as I can tell both the government and the various coercive organisations it employs, do not recognise that there is any issue whatsoever with suppressing dissent.

That's a big problem in my view, and I'd argue its dimensions are wider than this one case.

My initial aim here was to see if I could get you, as a representative of one of those coercive organisations who was easily available and known for being at least somewhat reasonable, to even acknowledge that any chilling effect exists. It seems that you do (by page 4 anyway), but that you think that this group's impact on business and inconvenience to air travellers outweighs the negative impact of any chilling effect and perhaps even that it's got a positive effect for the preservation of law and order through deterrence, or something like that.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm misrepresenting you.

I think the balance of harm in the individual case is arguable, but I also think that the implications of this sort of stuff go a lot wider than this individual case. We have a government and various 'authorities' who apparently see nothing wrong with a whole collection of behaviours which have a chilling effect on dissent. We've seen them beating the snot out of non-violent protesters and people who just wandered into their general vicinity, we've seen FIT teams photographing and ID'ing non-violent protesters, we've seen conspiracy charges (no doubt aided by suborned informants) used against people on the premise that they may have been thinking about some NVDA, we've seen a whole bunch of highly dodgy anti-terror laws introduced to paint what was formerly seen as legitimate protest as terrorism, they're collecting data on anyone vaguely associated with political activity and building a centralised database to store it in for easy access and so on ... all of that stuff has a cumulative effect on anyone when they are debating whether they can afford to get involved in protest of any kind or whether the negative consequences are going to be too scary.

All of this stuff therefore adds up to quite a substantial chilling effect on dissent and suborning informants among a bunch of vaguely irritating posh eco-hippies has to be seen in that context in my view. Whether you can justify it in law'n'order terms or not, it's still yet another nail among many in the coffin of our political freedoms.
 
Had this been a member of the BNP that had been approached to become a tout would there be such outrage ? or should the police check with you to see which political views are in your view valid ?
Well, I think you'll find that it's fairly well-accepted that the BNP has its' fair share of "touts", so it'd hardly be surprising if members were approached. personally, I also suspect it'd be unsurprising if everyone in the BNP ratted each other out for the money, but that's just my antipathy to racism talking.
The BNP have political views and some of it's members commit crime same goes for Plane Stupid. It's good to know that the rozzers have and are recruiting touts IMO.
Well, that kind of depends on why they're recruiting touts. If they only want general info, that's fine. The problem is that so often they wish their informants to become agents provocateurs, or use the informant to validate someone whose aim is to become a provocateur.
 
Don't be obtuse. The police asked for Matilda Gifford to inform on political activity. That would no more be the job of the police with the BNP than with Plane Stupid. There is a valid debate to be had about informing on criminal activity. The police can't tell difference. Can you?
Depends whether the copper was SB or fronting for them, or not.
 
Plane stupid - and other environemental groups - are not being targetted becasue they break the law or not. They are being targetted by the secret police beacsue of their ideological beliefs and political activity - in the same way that left wing groups, CND and militant trade unionists were (and probably still are) targetted in the past - e.g. MI5 were used to help break the miners strike.

That is its completely distinct from police information gathering activites being used against organsied criminals.

Most people are supportive of the spooks being used agasint the like of Al Queada or the IRA pre-good friday agreement.

The same tactics being used against anyone deemed by the state as 'idelogically threatening' should be unacepptable for obvious reasons.

Just becasue the state have always done this doesn't make it right.

If anything - in these days of the creeping police survilance state where it is ever easier for the state to monitor all your actions and movement - it is even more disturbing.
this
 
wouldnt it just be the sensible option to take the cash and give them duff info?

or is it a pay after results kinda set up?....... glad to see my tax money is once again being put too excellent use :rolleyes:
 
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