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Caster Semenya 800m champion: a man or a woman?

kabbes said:
But what do you do with somebody who is *almost* genetically a woman, but has some of the athletic advantages of a man?

Seriously -- I don't think that the IAAF even know what to do with the situation. Last night they were saying that even if the tests don't show definitively that she is conventionally a woman, they still might not actually stop her competing as a woman.

It's a tough call. All top athletes will have some physical advantage that allows them to win. In a way, an unusual configuration of sex chromosomes is just another version of this.
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That's pretty much where my thoughts have been going, too.

Even if her sex is a little complicated - such as her being XXY or having AIS - she still presents as a woman and was brought up as female. That's enough, IMO.

The whole point of having seperate male and female competitions is that men are, overall, at such a great natural advantage that women would hardly ever beat them in athletics. That would make it rather depressing for the women and boring for the spectators. Having seperate comps sorts that out. A straightforward 'was born with female genitals = goes into female competitions' rule is all that's needed.

Otherwise, what are they going to do, have special competitions for the tiny numbers of intersex athletes?

And, of course, she might just be a biologically uncomplicated woman who's ended up looking more masculine because of intense physical training and small boobs. Oh, and, shock!horror! having short hair. I think the SA authorities were most likely right when they said there are lots of other Limpopo women who look like her.

Fedayn said:
however if, as they say, she is a woman then why should they care about it arising?
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Because she'd be totally humiliiated by the publicity and the testing? Especially at the age of 18. She wasn't even allowed to do a lap of honour because she got hurried away from the press instead. :(
 
twistedAM said:
True and those that gain:
TV companies
Corporate sponsors
Print media

I don't think the sport will gain as the public will just think the governing bodies are another bunch of wheeler-dealing, buck-passing freeloaders.
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It's possible that people might learn a little about biological sex from all this, though. There are lots of people who still think that biological sex is just 'male' and 'female' and that's that.
 
scifisam said:
That's pretty much where my thoughts have been going, too.

Even if her sex is a little complicated - such as her being XXY or having AIS - she still presents as a woman and was brought up as female. That's enough, IMO.

The whole point of having seperate male and female competitions is that men are, overall, at such a great natural advantage that women would hardly ever beat them in athletics. That would make it rather depressing for the women and boring for the spectators. Having seperate comps sorts that out. A straightforward 'was born with female genitals = goes into female competitions' rule is all that's needed.

Otherwise, what are they going to do, have special competitions for the tiny numbers of intersex athletes?

And, of course, she might just be a biologically uncomplicated woman who's ended up looking more masculine because of intense physical training and small boobs. Oh, and, shock!horror! having short hair. I think the SA authorities were most likely right when they said there are lots of other Limpopo women who look like her.



Because she'd be totally humiliiated by the publicity and the testing? Especially at the age of 18. She wasn't even allowed to do a lap of honour because she got hurried away from the press instead. :(
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Great post sam

I looked for a thread on this but didn't see it til now
 
Tests have revealed Caster Semenya's testosterone level to be three times higher than those normally expected in a female sample, BBC Sport understands.

Analysis prior to the World Athletics Championships and the 18-year-old's big improvement prompted calls for a gender test from the sport's governing body.

It was made public only hours before the South African, who has been backed by her nation, won the 800m in Berlin.

A high level of the hormone does not always equate to a failed drugs test.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/8219937.stm
 
Adding this to the allegations that South Africa has some former GDR coaches on their payroll, it seems more and more like a case of good old doping abuse than some sort of biological mishap.
 
scifisam said:
It's possible that people might learn a little about biological sex from all this, though. There are lots of people who still think that biological sex is just 'male' and 'female' and that's that.
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Fwiw, Caster is far from the first. It's just, this time, there wasn't enough time between the athlete emerging and the IAAF doing what it has quietly done before behind the scenes. She improved by 7-8 seconds over the distance only 4 weeks before the championships.
 
scifisam said:
It's possible that people might learn a little about biological sex from all this, though. There are lots of people who still think that biological sex is just 'male' and 'female' and that's that.
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This has occurred to me a number of times when discussing the whole debacle with people.
 
London_Calling said:
Fwiw, Caster is far from the first. It's just, this time, there wasn't enough time between the athlete emerging and the IAAF doing what it has quietly done before behind the scenes. She improved by 7-8 seconds over the distance only 4 weeks before the championships.
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I really don't understand how improving her times means she might be a man. It's a very good reason to do extra drugs tests on her, though.
 
Yeah, I think that the whole palaver could end up being a positive from an educational pov. I've certainly learnt a lot.

However, thinking more about this, the jump between her times last year and this year is so great that doping looks like the more likely scenario.
 
Diamond said:
Yeah, I think that the whole palaver could end up being a positive from an educational pov. I've certainly learnt a lot.

However, thinking more about this, the jump between her times last year and this year is so great that doping looks like the more likely scenario.
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It's a definite possibility. But then, she's still young - she could have had a late growth spurt like some people do at 17 or 18. Or she could have started taking a legal medication that improved her health and her performance. Surely they must have drug tested her extensively? :confused:

London_Calling said:
It doesn't. It just means she wasn't on the IAAF's radar until her times did improve.
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Why does that mean that the IAAF had to make the gender tests public knowledge?
 
I would have thought the poster recently claiming to be Shabba Ranks long lost penis should bone her and report back here..
 
scifisam said:
Having seperate comps sorts that out. A straightforward 'was born with female genitals = goes into female competitions' rule is all that's needed.

Otherwise, what are they going to do, have special competitions for the tiny numbers of intersex athletes?
Click to expand...
I don't see how this helps.

You are just replacing the IOC's definition of womanhood with your own (rather simple) one. What happens with cases of ambiguous genitalia?

Of course, there aren't going to be special races for intersex they have to be either women, or compete in the men's category.
 
It's so trite to say she's been treated bady - the whole world knows she's been treated badly. The better question is why and by whom, and in that regard her own (South African) federation have got off very lightly indeed.

It seems they were asked to leave her behind after she won the trials by an impossible margin for this very reason, but they chose not to for their own reasons claiming lots of women from her tribal region look similar.

And now they're completley shocked at how this has all played out and they're protecting thier "little girl".
 
So what's the verdict then?

A complete nomark athlete suddenly becomes world champ and is found with very high levels of male hormones.

Sure, she has been treated badly, but (s)he's a.......see my second sentence...
 
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