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Caster Semenya 800m champion: a man or a woman?

Maggot said:
Poor woman. :(

They could have waited till after the race before raising this.
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It would make more sense to get it sorted before the race - and they did try apparently:
The International Association of Athletics Federations says it demanded the test three weeks ago amid fears she should not be able to run as a woman.
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weltweit said:
I just saw a bit about this on BBC Atheletics.

They said it is pretty shocking to reveal the presence of an investigation so early when drugs tests for example are only revealed to the public after both A & B samples have been tested. In this case this is the start of the investigation and already it is public. Sommat wrong.

Its a pretty bizzare story though.
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I saw that too and it is a good point, also Michael Johnson went on to point out that in the case of an athlete taking drugs that is a deliberate action on the athlete's part whereas this is not deliberate on her part, she has been brought up as a woman, she is a woman as far as she, her family etc.. is concerned yet she is being treated worse than if she had done something wrong i.e. take drugs.

Badly handled by the IAAF I feel. Poor girl.
 
I agree it is poor of the governing body to have publicised the issue hours before her race, however when you actually look into her times and the manner in which she runs, it is easy to see why this has been brought up.

Furthermore, as has been already pointed out, there is precedence for this sort of thing.

I'm far from having any kind of expertise and I'm sure there will be people here who run competitively who might be able to correct me, but her technique, in comparison to the other athletes in the field, looks quite different. I think it's something to do with her hips.
 
She was also unknown until last month when she beat her previous best time by SEVEN seconds - she literally came out of nowhere 5-6 weeks ago.
 
I'm afraid there's only one thing I can say.

Probably.

That's all. I'm pretty certain that she's not an armadillo or a badger. My money is definitely on man or woman. To be honest I don't really care which, not least because we have a lot of issues to create a consensus view on regarding the more complex aspects of gender before it's time to work out how individual athletes should be categorised. Since I don't believe there is currently a scientific consensus that can be used as a basis for a binary definition of gender, I don't think any satisfactory conclusions can be reached.
 
This is her interview to various press people after the semis earlier this week:


The rumours about this have apparently being circulating for some time and the first interviewer spends a lot of time tip toeing around asking her about her background (read gender) while the second interviewer sounds almost angry when he asks her about her performances (presumably thinking that she has cheated in a more conventional manner, i.e. drugs of some sort).
 
ericjarvis said:
Since I don't believe there is currently a scientific consensus that can be used as a basis for a binary definition of gender, I don't think any satisfactory conclusions can be reached.
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They aren't trying to establish gender though, they're trying to establish sex. Assuming we follow the usual practice of referring to cultural identity as "gender" and genetic identity as "sex".

Although there is even a problem there, in that (as you rightfully said), it isn't as straightforward as there being simply two obviously different sexes

From that link:

Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) is an example of a DSD that also illustrates that female development is the default for humans. Although having one X and one Y chromosome, some people are biologically insensitive to the androgens produced by their testes. As a result they follow the normal human processes which result in a person of female sex. Women who are XY report identifying as a woman — feeling and thinking like a woman — and, where their biology is completely insensitive to masculinizing factors, externally they look identical to other women. Unlike other women, however, they cannot produce ova, because they do not have ovaries.
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fen_boy said:
They have tests for this don't they? Isn't that what they're doing now?
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But what do you do with somebody who is *almost* genetically a woman, but has some of the athletic advantages of a man?

Seriously -- I don't think that the IAAF even know what to do with the situation. Last night they were saying that even if the tests don't show definitively that she is conventionally a woman, they still might not actually stop her competing as a woman.

It's a tough call. All top athletes will have some physical advantage that allows them to win. In a way, an unusual configuration of sex chromosomes is just another version of this.
 
The whole process has become about looking for people who are extraordinary in some way, to the point of being freakish. So it's not that surprising that they're sometimes a bit out of the ordinary really.

This person has been treated well shabbily though...
 
Was listening (half-awake) to 5Live this morning and apparently the IAAF had a word with Sport South Africa asking them to leave her out of the team until it all gets sorted and the response was something like "she looks like many other healthy young women from the Limpopo province".
Maybe IAAF are covering their tracks but SSA surely knew this would blow up sooner or later.
 
twistedAM said:
Was listening (half-awake) to 5Live this morning and apparently the IAAF had a word with Sport South Africa asking them to leave her out of the team until it all gets sorted and the response was something like "she looks like many other healthy young women from the Limpopo province".
Maybe IAAF are covering their tracks but SSA surely knew this would blow up sooner or later.
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Which amounts to the IAAF stumbling about in the dark desperately looking for an exit. They haven't any evidence or proof of any wrong doing but in order to get themeselves off the hook they have a quiet qword to try and get themselves out of a sticky situation.

Perhaps the SSA did realise what would eventually arise, however if, as they say, she is a woman then why should they care about it arising?
 
Fedayn said:
Which amounts to the IAAF stumbling about in the dark desperately looking for an exit. They haven't any evidence or proof of any wrong doing but in order to get themeselves off the hook they have a quiet qword to try and get themselves out of a sticky situation.

Perhaps the SSA did realise what would eventually arise, however if, as they say, she is a woman then why should they care about it arising?
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Apparently the IAAF had a quiet word a few weeks before the World Championships. This is probably some spin they're putting on the situation they got themselves in and trying to shove some blame onto SSA.
Only reporting what was the radio and no idea who to believe but it looks is like neither IAAF or SSA did Semenya any favours.
 
Not sure tbh.

I asked my 4 year old daughter and she said she thought it was a woman, but wasn't sure either.

Kids that age are so honest it's great.

Back to the bird or bloke question. I think this has been handled awfully. I know athletics are trying desperately hard to drum up interest in the sport. Empty stadiums have been noted.

The Athletics top bods should show a bit more respect imo. This woman/man is being used as a marketing tool (excuse the unintended pun).
 
twistedAM said:
Apparently the IAAF had a quiet word a few weeks before the World Championships. This is probably some spin they're putting on the situation they got themselves in and trying to shove some blame onto SSA.
Only reporting what was the radio and no idea who to believe but it looks is like neither IAAF or SSA did Semenya any favours.
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It's the new Olympic sport 'Long distance buck passing'. The IAAF hasn't done what it should do behind the scenes, panicked and desperately tried to pass the buck. The only person to erally suffer in this is Semenya herself.
 
Fedayn said:
It's the new Olympic sport 'Long distance buck passing'. The IAAF hasn't done what it should do behind the scenes, panicked and desperately tried to pass the buck. The only person to erally suffer in this is Semenya herself.
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True and those that gain:
TV companies
Corporate sponsors
Print media

I don't think the sport will gain as the public will just think the governing bodies are another bunch of wheeler-dealing, buck-passing freeloaders.
 
twistedAM said:
True and those that gain:
TV companies
Corporate sponsors
Print media

I don't think the sport will gain as the public will just think the governing bodies are another bunch of wheeler-dealing, buck-passing freeloaders.
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Yup, shabby really....
 
twistedAM said:
True and those that gain:
TV companies
Corporate sponsors
Print media

I don't think the sport will gain as the public will just think the governing bodies are another bunch of wheeler-dealing, buck-passing freeloaders.
Click to expand...

It is a real shame - I am not an avid follower of athlectics but I do enjoy watching it especially on big occasions such as championships. Having tried to sort out the issues surrounding drugs they now put their foot in their mouths in this situation.
 
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