Cars crowding out children's play - BBC report

[kyser_soze]

Interesting international comparisons on RTAs here

Basically, you have more chance of being injured as a result of an RTA in the UK, but less chance of being killed, than comparably sized EU countries (France, Italy, Germany) - France only has about 85K injuries, but you are twice as likely to die, and for alcohol to be involved, then in the UK.

The excel sheets on that like are really good, cos you can do things like work out ratios of estimated passenger miles and all that...

 

[editor]

...they want us to chop down a tree in the garden because the leaves fall on their lawn....

FFS. How dare nature intrude on their precious garden! The morons.

 

[Idaho]

We live in a aspiring middle class area where money and image talks!

Sounds more like aspiring working class to me.

 

[Poi E]

Funny reading about the street football ASBO thing, with the police saying that it isn't a problem unless people's property is damaged. Where's the fun in that? You kick the ball into a car, dent the door, neighbour has a rant, you come back later and pinch his hub caps etc. Hopefully the incident taught the kids a healthy disrespect for the police.

Christ, I really need my pipe and slippers.

 

[untethered]

Play England works with local authorities and the play sector across England to promote local play strategies and build partnerships for play.

We promote standards, equality and diversity in play provision.

We research and demonstrate the benefits of play, to raise awareness - at all levels - of the need to provide high quality play opportunities for all children and young people.

http://www.playengland.org.uk/

I didn't realise it was now the play sector. Things are worse than I thought.

 

[fredfelt]

Like so many other things, its the "tyranny of the majority" again: Once a critical mass of people have cars, then they can drive to big supermarkets, meaning that there aren't enough people left to use the local shops for many of those shops to stay viable. This then stuffs the people without cars.

You see this with many things: if 60% or more of people want something, or just start doing something, then that's fine, except that it can disadvantage the minority who then can't do things their way.

Giles..

And in this case a disadvantage to the majorty, whos kids no longer play on the street they live on.

 

[jusali]

Sounds more like aspiring working class to me.

I assumed everyone was middle class nowadays but that's a whole other kettle of fishes Aspiring to be Middle class?

 

[_angel_]

Funny reading about the street football ASBO thing, with the police saying that it isn't a problem unless people's property is damaged. Where's the fun in that? You kick the ball into a car, dent the door, neighbour has a rant, you come back later and pinch his hub caps etc. Hopefully the incident taught the kids a healthy disrespect for the police.

Christ, I really need my pipe and slippers.

Not to mention all the council properties that have 'no ball games' signs up.

I admit it was a tad annoying when the local youth were bouncing their football off me door every three and a half seconds but I wouldn't complain about it.

 

[Idaho]

I thought that cycling and composting were more likely to be the worthy acts of knit-your-own goats cheese middle classes. Activities that provoke total bemusement from multi-car owning sky tv watching wealthy working class aspirants.

I remember this divide causing some cultural confusion when I worked in The City once. I was telling a lady from Essex how I went on a walking holiday. She looked confused and asked my why I didn't just drive.

 

[Poi E]

I remember this divide causing some cultural confusion when I worked in The City once. I was telling a lady from Essex how I went on a walking holiday. She looked confused and asked my why I didn't just drive.

 

[roryer]

Road accident deaths across all ages dropped from 8,302 in 1971 to 3,501 in 1998

True, but what statistics hide is how this drop has been achieved, road safety teams are often at odds with cycle promotion teams, councils have targets for road safety, the easiest way to achieve these is by getting cyclists and pedestrians into cars. Kids are not allowed to drive, so this is in effect a form of social exclusion.

The only real solution is that we need to do all we can to reduce both the speed and number of cars in urban areas.

We are stuck in a vicious circle..
public transport not good enough = too many cars on road = perception of danger for cyclists = I have to drive everywhere = too many cars on road = limited demand for public transport = public transport not good enough = too many cars on road etc. etc. etc.

Luckily in London we have a Mayor with the powers and political will to break the circle. Unfortunately we have a national government that bows down to the power of the likes of the Mail and other pro-Clarkson red tops.

However apart from lobbying for initiatives like road pricing every individual has the power to make changes that have a real effect, and a little change will go a long way.

I personally make the effort to be car free as do many other car free individuals living in places as diverse as rural wales to suburban London.

I accept however that its not easy to make every trip by bicycle or public transport, but that's not what is needed.

If every motorist could change just one trip in ten to alternatives to the car demand for public transport and cycling would rocket, allowing us to provide a hugely improved service and allocate more road space for cyclists, meaning more trips would become possible without a car, and suddenly we would have created a virtuous circle.

If you can't commute without a car, think if you drive any trips under 2 miles, if so then why not walk or cycle?

What about leisure trips where time is not or shouldn't be important, try to use the bus, kids love to take public transport well at least my nephews aged 4 and 6 seem to enjoy it, also remember the addage its the journey not the detinatination that counts and if it really takes 4 hours into town and back bring a book. I mean what's the rush? Can't you wait to get back to watch some more tv or surf the internet?

 

[Cobbles]

Bring in the 20mph urban limits with doubled fines and maybe that figure will start to really fall.

Alternatively fine parents who don't train their kids how to behave responsibly in the street. Hmmn - remembers latest government road safety public service video - the one bout "yoot" larking in street with mobiles.....

 

[Spion]

I thought that cycling and composting were more likely to be the worthy acts of knit-your-own goats cheese middle classes. Activities that provoke total bemusement from multi-car owning sky tv watching wealthy working class aspirants.

I think you're probably actually describing different cultures within the same classes

 

[Idaho]

I think you're probably actually describing different cultures within the same classes

You are, of course, right. It is one of the prime causes of so much confusion on these boards that we interchangably use the term class both for economic status and for cultural strata/splinter.

Perhaps the reason for this is that such cultural splinters were originally based on economic strata or industrial sector. The yoghurt weavers being born of public sector clerical. Paternalist, left-wing and convinced by their own merits. The sky tv , multi-cars, being mainly private sector and right-wing, seeing material difference to their standards of living coming from independant wealth creation.

[/derail]

 

[jusali]

Hippies vs yuppies then?

Calling me a fugging hippy?

 

[Poi E]

Alternatively fine parents who don't train their kids how to behave responsibly in the street. .

Bollocks to that

 

[Idaho]

Hehehe..

Not really hippies or yuppies. Although the public sector middle classes do seem the most prone to hippy-dippy stuff. And it does tend to be university towns that have the highest ratio of such folk.

Yuppies are a different thing entirely.

 

[co-op]

Basically I think the BBC report, and whomever did the spurious study that lay behind it, is a load of bollocks.

If you'd read the BBC report you would see the study was by Demos. Perhaps you might want to have a look at it before you ride your ideological high horse over its conclusions and divert into standard Daily Mail harumphing about compensation cultures etc.

I haven't seen anything you've posted up here that contradicts its findings - the fact that you keep wanting to overlook is that children don't play in the street any more - it is almost non-existent. When I was a child in the 1970s it was where you played. The problem we have with this is that no one has ever measured in any detail this dimension so there's no neat correlation that can be made between that and the "fall" in child deaths.

Half the problem is that there literally isn't any space with cars parked nose-to-tail. And we know well how bizarrely aggressive and hysterical car-owners become if their precious lumps of metal are so much as touched by a football or leant against by a child.

Cybertechs interesting digression into horse-and-cart fatalities indicates a that 7% of child deaths were caused on the roads pre-car. It's necessarily a bit guessy so I wouldn't accuse anyone of standing much on those figures - but child deaths from cars are now the largest cause of death and permenant disability in children - I don't have the percentage to hand, but I'm sure willing to bet that's going to be way over 7%.

And as for blaming children for running into the road etc - I am just left dumb. That's what children do - they are impulsive: being impulsive is what play is...

 

[kyser_soze]

And as for blaming children for running into the road etc - I am just left dumb. That's what children do - they are impulsive: being impulsive is what play is...

Funny, when I was a kid I learned NOT to run into the road, to have a sense of safety insofar as running into the road was not compatible with that personal safety, and I managed to have just as enjoyable, impulsive and fun filled life as my contemporaries. More to the point, I was referring more to teenagers who behave like complete fucking twats, horsing about in the middle of busy roads (trying to cross motorways and dual carriageways...yeah, that's spontaneous and impulsive)

 

[moose]

When I was a kid I went to the park.

 

[Idaho]

When I was a kid I went to the park.

Yeah but as we all know, kids hanging out in groups at the park are anti-social thugs and are up to no good.

 

[moose]

...and of course there's a paedophile behind every shrub.

 

[jusali]

Half the problem is that there literally isn't any space with cars parked nose-to-tail. And we know well how bizarrely aggressive and hysterical car-owners become if their precious lumps of metal are so much as touched by a football or leant against by a child.


..

Always confuses me that one, hocked up to the eyeballs to get one over on the neighbours thus no choice but to go loopy if anyone looks like they're gonna scratch it. Humans!

 

[_angel_]

Funny, when I was a kid I learned NOT to run into the road, to have a sense of safety insofar as running into the road was not compatible with that personal safety, and I managed to have just as enjoyable, impulsive and fun filled life as my contemporaries. More to the point, I was referring more to teenagers who behave like complete fucking twats, horsing about in the middle of busy roads (trying to cross motorways and dual carriageways...yeah, that's spontaneous and impulsive)

Apparently young children (not stupid teenagers I don't think) Can't judge speed and distance in the same way as adults and that's why they're more likely to be knocked over. Also when you're a kid you think you're invincible.

Sense of danger only comes gradually.

 

[jusali]

Apparently young children (not stupid teenagers I don't think) Can't judge speed and distance in the same way as adults and that's why they're more likely to be knocked over. Also when you're a kid you think you're invincible.

Sense of danger only comes gradually.

Something I'm beginning to learn with mine is that they don't have hindsight which we take for granted

 

[co-op]

Also when you're a kid you think you're invincible.

.

Also when you're behind the wheel of a car you think you're invincible - which explains a lot of driving behaviour.

In fact we're not emotionally well designed for driving huge lumps of over-powered metal. For many people, being behind the wheel of a car is - absolutely literally - a power trip. Hence the infantile behaviour that often results when reality intrudes and the driver's fantasy of omnipotence is disturbed.

 

[Poi E]

Also when you're behind the wheel of a car you think you're invincible - which explains a lot of driving behaviour.

In fact we're not emotionally well designed for driving huge lumps of over-powered metal. For many people, being behind the wheel of a car is - absolutely literally - a power trip. Hence the infantile behaviour that often results when reality intrudes and the driver's fantasy of omnipotence is disturbed.

You know, I reckon a lot of it is that people just don't fucking well pay attention. Twits on mobile phones, women doing makeup, having a fag and dreaming away to the music. Not designed for the job, as you say.

 

[co-op]

You know, I reckon a lot of it is that people just don't fucking well pay attention. Twits on mobile phones, women doing makeup, having a fag and dreaming away to the music. Not designed for the job, as you say.

You see all those things you mention I'm fine that people do them, hell, throw in having a few beers as well - but only if their cars are gov'nored down to 5-6mph with really rubbish acceleration. Also a size limit - about mini moke would do I'd think. Also low front ends so as not to bulldoze pedestrians in the inevitable event of an accident (unlike our contemporary chum the 4x4). In fact I'd make Brixton a mandatory mini-moke zone, special funky ones for funky Brixton people, with bouncy bonnets in case of accidents...

 

[HackneyE9]

This is one I don't need evidence beyond that of my own eyes for. I grew up in the mid-late 70s on a 100m cul de sac. There were never any cars parked on it, we did laps on the pavement on our bikes, and sledged down the middle of the road in winter.

My parents still live there and 30 years on it's bumper to bumper parked cars, all but one house has paved over their front garden to create more 'parking'. And it doesn't snow anymore.

I fear it's too late for Britain, short of peak oil or a catastrophic climate change. In France, Germany, Netherlands, Scandianavia, Belgium, it's normal to cycle, there are local shops everywhere, bikes come with lights, racks and baskets, grannies and businessmen do it. In the UK it's just bypasses, flyovers and out of town shopping centres.

 

[_angel_]

I fear it's too late for Britain, short of peak oil or a catastrophic climate change. In France, Germany, Netherlands, Scandianavia, Belgium, it's normal to cycle, there are local shops everywhere, bikes come with lights, racks and baskets, grannies and businessmen do it. In the UK it's just bypasses, flyovers and out of town shopping centres.

That's a little bit of an exaggeration. There are still plenty of local shops within a stone throw of my house and a supermarket within walking distance.

Where my parents are in a more affluent part of town the corner shops are not as near but still walkable.