Carol Singing in Parliament Square
- Thread starter Badger Kitten
- Start date
TAE said:
I only asked the question in the first place because there are several laws with reguard to demonstrations around Parliament when it is sitting that do not apply when it is not.
Looking at the act quoted it appears there is a part of the act that may require a test case to get a legal precedent:-
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2005/50015--l.htm
"(3) In giving authorisation, the Commissioner may impose on the persons organising or taking part in the demonstration such conditions specified in the authorisation and relating to the demonstration as in the Commissioner's reasonable opinion are necessary for the purpose of preventing any of the following-
(b) hindrance to the proper operation of Parliament, "
Fairly obviously one cannot be hindering the proper operation of Parliament if it is not sitting.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
Chuck Wilson said:
you know, the reason i politely requested that questioning of the motives and politics attached to this action is because too often a thread like this begins and then a load of p+p types wade in with the bickering, the point-scoring, the undermining of anyone who attempts to go, and basically it turns into an insultfest or an argument and the casual urbanite cannae be arsed to stomach the whole thing. it's depressing and counter-productive. and guess what? you've proved exactly that. i'm not censoring anything, i was asking that if you were so keen to debate the point or politics behind this could you start another thread. this thread could quite easily be in exactly the same forum. if that's your idea of censorship, then you're actually insane, or a moron.
what do I hope to achieve? i want to see what constitutes a protest, what actions have to be taken, and if our beloved police force are willing to violently break up a carol service. achievement: a test case for future demonstrations and some interesting news stories for tomorrow's paper that could further undermine blair's reputation and help alert people to the rapid erosion of civil rights in this country. got a problem with that?
Chuck Wilson said:
Surely anything which highlights this and brings it to the publics attention has got to be a good thing. A carol service sounds like an ideal protest to me as the public are far more likely to be sympathetic towards anyone arrested for singing carols and hopefully this would help them see the idiocy and complete wrongness of the new laws.
bluestreak said:
Typical Guardian reading smugness delivered in a limp wristed bland and vacuous Ned Flanders style .
Or we could quote it all, you know, with context and stuff:tobyjug said:
"(3) In giving authorisation, the Commissioner may impose on the persons organising or taking part in the demonstration such conditions specified in the authorisation and relating to the demonstration as in the Commissioner's reasonable opinion are necessary for the purpose of preventing any of the following-
(a) hindrance to any person wishing to enter or leave the Palace of Westminster,
(b) hindrance to the proper operation of Parliament,
(c) serious public disorder,
(d) serious damage to property,
(e) disruption to the life of the community,
(f) a security risk in any part of the designated area,
(g) risk to the safety of members of the public (including any taking part in the demonstration)."
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
Chuck Wilson said:
oh do fuck off dear fellow. your robust posts are oh so useful. sorry, should i be preparing to storm the barricades of power, taking a pointless headshot in an effort to make everyone see just how unjust this whole world is. seeing as you refuse to allow this thread to be a casual discussion and insist on creating the sort of bickering that means that for most people p+p is just a losers' ego-wank to be avoided, let's have your suggestions for a practical form of protest against this particular law. and by practical, i mean practical, not "join the swp / iwca / respect / labour".
trashpony said:People are seriously starting to scare me now. Is it really likely that we'll get arrested?
It is HIGHLY unlikely. Firstly Parliament is not sitting, secondly it is unlikely that the police will take action but if they do they will probably issue a warning first. However, there is a risk of arrest that attendees should be aware of.
As for the point of the protest that is obvious and its coverage on the BBC website highlights the draconian nature of the legislation and shows that the planned carol singing has made the intended point. So good on the organisers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4545704.stm
The police make the legislation look really silly here:
"A Scotland Yard spokeswoman was not able to comment on whether a carol service constituted a demonstration and said a decision about whether to take action would be taken on the day."
editor said:
I wasn't refering to this protest just to the patronising tone of his reply, it was almost William like. Challenging and testing laws like this are difficult I remember being on a banned demonstration supporting Bobby Sands in Kilburn which ended up with not only several arrest but several cases in hospital.The organisers of this want to be very sure that it just doesn't end in arrests when the Xmas and New Year will wreck the momentum of any support.
snadge said:
Some sort of vegan eating anarchist type action you mean?
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
Chuck Wilson said:
how do you know what the organisers or indeed the protesters want? and to be fair, if you're going to accuse anyone who doesn't want a thread to turn into an argument of being patronising then you're going to have to stop using expressions like monothought or censorship like some schoolchild calling his parents fascists.
your recommendation for challenging this law, as opposed to a 'i'm a more hardcore protester then you' story, if you could.
Badger Kitten
oof
what I wrote about it in my diary
Will we be arrested for singing carols in a demonstration of hope, joy and religious tolerance? I hope not. I love singing carols, and we have sung them in this country for a thousand years. Even when an Act Of Parliament banned Christmas celebrations in 1644, still we sang. I like to think that we are a pragmatic and freedom-loving people in this country, with no time for frankly silly laws. Such laws, and those who press for them don't tend to last long.
Hummmmm.... see the BBC and cross your fingers for us (difficult in mittens).
Human Rights Act 1998
Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others... No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
Over to Bloggerheads
''The 'decision on the day' would appear to hinge on the carol service being a danger to public safety or morality (and, no doubt, how many members of the media are present).
It's hard to see how this could be the case if all we are doing is singing Christmas carols
And that is all we will be doing. There will be no placards, there will be no flyers.
There will only be carol sheets and candles.
We plan to arrive, pass out these carol sheets and candles (accepting any donations people care to give in exchange), sing our selection of Christian and secular verse, and then quietly depart after a short prayer.
The only thing that can turn this into something other than a peaceful affair will be heavy-handed actions by the police.
PS - Admittedly, we are open to a legal challenge over public safety if the turn-out is massive (i.e. if there are more people than Parliament Square can safely accommodate) but there is a contingency plan that covers this unlikely event. ''
So at 6pm I will be there, with my friends and with people I have not met yet, and I will sing my heart out. Sing about peace on earth, sing about grace and goodwill to all men and hope and joy. This has been one hell of a year, what else should I do at the ending of it but sing, standing shoulder to shoulder with other Londoners? As I did on July 14th in Trafalgar Square when thousands stood united against those e who sought to sow fear and division. Summer ended, winter came, and I am still here, I am still singing.
Just try and stop me.
Will we be arrested for singing carols in a demonstration of hope, joy and religious tolerance? I hope not. I love singing carols, and we have sung them in this country for a thousand years. Even when an Act Of Parliament banned Christmas celebrations in 1644, still we sang. I like to think that we are a pragmatic and freedom-loving people in this country, with no time for frankly silly laws. Such laws, and those who press for them don't tend to last long.
Hummmmm.... see the BBC and cross your fingers for us (difficult in mittens).
Human Rights Act 1998
Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others... No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
Over to Bloggerheads
''The 'decision on the day' would appear to hinge on the carol service being a danger to public safety or morality (and, no doubt, how many members of the media are present).
It's hard to see how this could be the case if all we are doing is singing Christmas carols
And that is all we will be doing. There will be no placards, there will be no flyers.
There will only be carol sheets and candles.
We plan to arrive, pass out these carol sheets and candles (accepting any donations people care to give in exchange), sing our selection of Christian and secular verse, and then quietly depart after a short prayer.
The only thing that can turn this into something other than a peaceful affair will be heavy-handed actions by the police.
PS - Admittedly, we are open to a legal challenge over public safety if the turn-out is massive (i.e. if there are more people than Parliament Square can safely accommodate) but there is a contingency plan that covers this unlikely event. ''
So at 6pm I will be there, with my friends and with people I have not met yet, and I will sing my heart out. Sing about peace on earth, sing about grace and goodwill to all men and hope and joy. This has been one hell of a year, what else should I do at the ending of it but sing, standing shoulder to shoulder with other Londoners? As I did on July 14th in Trafalgar Square when thousands stood united against those e who sought to sow fear and division. Summer ended, winter came, and I am still here, I am still singing.
Just try and stop me.
There have been several breaches of this legislation and several arrests already. The first was the StWC token breach straight after the legislation came into being (the police issued a warning so those who did not want to be arrested to make a point left). The women anti-war protesters have breached the ban regularly and have suffered several arrests. The Jean Charles de Menezes family protest spontaneously marched through Parly Square and on to Scotland Yard. The police decided tactically to allow it.
My guess is that tonight the police will watch and not take action, but if they decide to act they will issue a warning and make only a token arrest or two. The police will want to uphold the supression of free speech without upping the stakes and bringing the law into disrepute. Their most sensible tactic might be to simply decide that the carol singers are not protesting but they risk setting a precedent. This is such a good protest; whatever the police do they show this law to be an ass.
The police have probably decided already not to take action (unless the singing is really off key) but did not want to announce such as this would encourage more people to attend.
My guess is that tonight the police will watch and not take action, but if they decide to act they will issue a warning and make only a token arrest or two. The police will want to uphold the supression of free speech without upping the stakes and bringing the law into disrepute. Their most sensible tactic might be to simply decide that the carol singers are not protesting but they risk setting a precedent. This is such a good protest; whatever the police do they show this law to be an ass.
The police have probably decided already not to take action (unless the singing is really off key) but did not want to announce such as this would encourage more people to attend.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
groucho, that's my take on it, but what i really need to know is... what decent pubs are in the area. i haven't got time to go home and come back out again.
bluestreak said:
For a fella that wants informal chat not debate you are not pressing the right buttons.
Are you seriously suggesting that the organisers do want loads of arrests on a small protest or that this would be desirable? My point about the Bobby Sands demo was that this was precisely the outcome that needs to be learnt from, rather than your cheer leading from the back. Now you has better hurry up or you'll be late.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
i'm not pressing the right buttons because i can't be arsed with being continually abused for no good reasons. read groucho's assessment. arrests or no arrests, either way the ends of the protest can be achieved - attention is drawn to the laws and the govt. and police are made to look foolish and/or weak.
for the third or fourth time on this thread, what would your best advice be to challenge this law in a manner both practical and easily understood to the non-political?
oh, and i don't need to leave just yet, i only work twenty minutes walk away.
for the third or fourth time on this thread, what would your best advice be to challenge this law in a manner both practical and easily understood to the non-political?
oh, and i don't need to leave just yet, i only work twenty minutes walk away.
Badger Kitten
oof
Look, you can either turn up, or not. It has always been made clear that by turning up you run the risk of arrest. It is, ultimately, up to you and whether you want to do this or not.
There may be a warning so you can leg it, or move and then sing one inch away from the exclusion zone, or whatever. Or you can get arrested. I don't know, nobody knows, and we turn up and sing carols AND JUST SING CAROLS NO PLACARDS NO BANNERS NO RUCKS NO FLYERS - we follow what the organiser suggests and we play nice and by doing so we make a point.
I am going, and I am singing, and I will see. I don't want anybody to be arrested, this is harmless and peaceful and arresting people - what is the point?
There may be a warning so you can leg it, or move and then sing one inch away from the exclusion zone, or whatever. Or you can get arrested. I don't know, nobody knows, and we turn up and sing carols AND JUST SING CAROLS NO PLACARDS NO BANNERS NO RUCKS NO FLYERS - we follow what the organiser suggests and we play nice and by doing so we make a point.
I am going, and I am singing, and I will see. I don't want anybody to be arrested, this is harmless and peaceful and arresting people - what is the point?
- The Red Lion just down whitehall is a pretty good pub, btw butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I think Chuck is asking some fairly pertinent practical questions here and the abuse being flung his way seems rather unwarrented. It should be clear what measures have been put in place in case of arrests, briefs whould be engaged orm at least pre-informed of the action and have filled the orgnaisers in in turn, legal monitors should be in attendance, cars and numbers sorted out and a plan of longer defence if anyone's charged and so on. What's so wrong with asking if these simple steps (or any others) have been taken?
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