cardiff's golden jubilee: but where was the previous capital?

[neprimerimye]

True, although they're classed as race riots, the underlying cause I feel is more likely to be a social one than pure hatred of the Chinese.

They were race riots in the classic sense of that term. Racists, in this case the local leaders of the NUS, organised a mob to attack minority groups while the police stood aside.

The immediate issue was the depression in trade caused by the end of the Imperialist World War but the underlying cause was the racist job trusting favoured by the NUS. If and when Lascar and Chinese labour was employed it was at lower rates of pay hence the felt need for a whites only policy.

The trouble is that such job trusting can only ever be carried out by a policy of class collaboration between the union and the employers. Which may work fine when theere is a labour shortage, as in war conditions, but is otherwise to the detriment of the workers. Similar policies led to anti-Chinese race riots on the West Coast of the USA (thus Jack Londons racism btw) and led to the White Australia policy.

What the NUS should have done is fight for equal wages for all sailors thus reducing the incentive for employers to hire cheaper labour. Instead they went in for class collaboration. Which is how we get to the situation whereby Britain no longer has a merchant fleet. Rather ludicrous for a set of off shore islands really.

 

[editor]

The immediate issue was the depression in trade caused by the end of the Imperialist World War but the underlying cause was the racist job trusting favoured by the NUS.

A little more context, perhaps:

In Cardiff in 1919 the black population was about 3,000, of which about 1,200 were unemployed merchant seamen, laid off at the end of World War I. Most of these people lived in the Bute Town neighborhood, close to the city's docks....

On the days preceding the Cardiff riots, there were violent incidents in Newport and Cadoxton resulting from racist and accusatory comments made by whites.
The atmosphere was charged due to both racism and the economic hardship of these men who had just returned from fighting a brutal war on behalf of Britain, yet received no compensation or gratitude from the government or its citizens.
http://diaspora.northwestern.edu/mbin/WebObjects/DiasporaX.woa/wa/displayArticle?atomid=621

According to the Head Constable's report on the Cardiff riots, the confrontation ...had begun "when a brake containing a number of coloured men and white women, apparently returning from an excursion, attracted a mixed crowd."16

"About 10 o'clock a wordy argument between blacks and whites ended in the blacks, who were in superior numbers, setting upon one of the white men, who was thrown to the ground and brutally kicked."17
The White man was rescued by a policeman "and the blacks, seeing that the anger of the whites had now been roused, bolted precipitately."
17. South Wales Echo, 12 June 1919.
18. Ibid.

It was also, apparently, 80 degree in the shade on the day...

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

They were race riots in the classic sense of that term. Racists, in this case the local leaders of the NUS, organised a mob to attack minority groups while the police stood aside.

The immediate issue was the depression in trade caused by the end of the Imperialist World War but the underlying cause was the racist job trusting favoured by the NUS. If and when Lascar and Chinese labour was employed it was at lower rates of pay hence the felt need for a whites only policy.

The trouble is that such job trusting can only ever be carried out by a policy of class collaboration between the union and the employers. Which may work fine when theere is a labour shortage, as in war conditions, but is otherwise to the detriment of the workers. Similar policies led to anti-Chinese race riots on the West Coast of the USA (thus Jack Londons racism btw) and led to the White Australia policy.

What the NUS should have done is fight for equal wages for all sailors thus reducing the incentive for employers to hire cheaper labour. Instead they went in for class collaboration. Which is how we get to the situation whereby Britain no longer has a merchant fleet. Rather ludicrous for a set of off shore islands really.

Bit like the Irish ferries today, undercutting a fair trade.

I still say that the hatred wasn't a hatred purely on race alone but deperate men being misled and enduring hard times.

 

[neprimerimye]

A little more context, perhaps:
It was also, apparently, 80 degree in the shade on the day...

Your 'additional context' seems designed to 'explain' the reprehensible actions of the rioters. The text you paste talks of them returning from fighting a brutal war on behalf of Britain. Leaving aside the point that the war was fought not for 'Britain' but for the beneft of the boss class and the boss class alone this adds nothing to my comments. The fact remains that one group of workers was pitted against another to the detriment of both.

I should add that I was once told by a former sailor present in Cardiff during the events that many if not most of the rioters were not sailors but 'bad types'. This is evidence I tend to believe as the man concerned was solidly Labour and he may also have been sympathetic to the aims of the rioters. The man concerned died however before I had any detailed knowledge of the riot and I only discussed it with him the once over 30 years ago now.

 

[editor]

The fact remains that one group of workers was pitted against another to the detriment of both..

Err, a large chunk of them weren't workers. They were unemployed.

And as far as most people were concerned, they were fighting for Britain, and your attempts to project your hindsight-laden political perspective on a historic event isn't particularly enlightening.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

Just browsing for more on this period and found this, they look like witness statements and police reports from the riot in 1919
bit in depth but looks interesting

 

[neprimerimye]

Err, a large chunk of them weren't workers. They were unemployed.

And as far as most people were concerned, they were fighting for Britain, and your attempts to project your hindsight-laden political perspective on a historic event isn't particularly enlightening.

Unemployed workers I suspect. Or are you suggesting they were unemployed ship owners?

That most of the men who fought in the First Imperialist World War thought they were fighting for 'their country' is a fact. It is not a fact that they fought for Britain other than in the sense that they wore the uniform of the British state. The false conscisouness of those concerned does not however mean that they had any more material interest in fighting Germany than you or I would in fighting in Iraq.

It is also a fact that these same men were then thrown out of work for their trouble. While the ship owners, mine owners and the rest of the gang of capitalists went about their busines of exploiting the men who had fought and the colonial possessions they fought for control over. Iraq comes to mind funnilly enough.

Which insight is neither mine nor a matter of hindsight but was common to the internationalist socialists who opposed that war at the time. You may wish to consult the files of the South Wales Socialist, among other papers and journals, for evidence of this btw.

 

[editor]

That most of the men who fought in the First Imperialist World War thought they were fighting for 'their country' is a fact.

So exactly what point are you trying to make here?

That the Welsh were all a bunch of a stinking rioting racists to a man?
How does that square with all the intermarriage that went on before and after the riot?

 

[neprimerimye]

So exactly what point are you trying to make here?

That the Welsh were all a bunch of a stinking rioting racists to a man?
How does that square with all the intermarriage that went on before and after the riot?

I'm not seeking to make any specific point about the 1919 riots. It is certainly not my intention to claim that everyone involved, discussing them as 'Welsh' is actually pretty meaningless given that many were seafarers, was a racist. The men concerned would almost certainly have thought of themselves as 'British' and as 'white'. And yes in todays terms most would be regarded as racists.

But if you think they are such then it is you that is making judgements about motives according to todays concepts not I. My views on the events were and are based on class criteria that remain fully applicable today as with the Irish Ferries dispute as RubberBuccanneer recognised (to whom ta for the link btw).

What I was pointing at was that the men involved, on both sides, had no class interest in fighting over jobs and housing. That their class interests were not best served by seeking to either undercut the other guy or by forming a racist jobs trust with the bosses. Both tactics leading to unemployment and wage gouging as in fact happened. Leading to the 1925 world wide strike of the British seamen btw.

Another point would be that many of the rioters were racists but they were also, again in their terms, Labour and Union men. Labourism right from the start was a ideology ambigous about racism in that it took the side of the British state. A state that represents the class interests of the boss class who will always use racism as a weapon if and when they feel the need.

The ambiguity of Labourism is illustrated by the role of the NUR No1 branch, detailed in the report linked by RB, which called for sympathy with Black men attacked in the riots. And help for them to return to the Caribbean. This is certainly a better position than that of the NUS bureacracts who formented divisions between the 'races' but it nonetheless views Black men (surplus labour) as the problem not the inability of the bourgeoisie to run the economy in the interests of all as the real problem.

There more to be learnt from this who wish to but I'm off for my tea.

 

[Brockway]

Just browsing for more on this period and found this, they look like witness statements and police reports from the riot in 1919
bit in depth but looks interesting

Fascinating stuff mate. Plenty on there I haven't seen before. Looks like the women were to blame then...

The Barry skirmish is interesting too.

 

[editor]

The men concerned would almost certainly have thought of themselves as 'British' and as 'white'.

Or - incredible as it might seem to you - 'Welsh'.

 

[neprimerimye]

Or - incredible as it might seem to you - 'Welsh'.

Highly unlikely among the common seamen of 1919 Cardiff. Many of said seamen would of course have hailed from the Old Commonwealth countries, the USA and other parts of Europe. Then you have to factor in the seamen from other parts of Britain.

All of which points to the majority having a 'British' identity. Which conclusion would seem to be shared by the various historians of the City and the trade. And for what its worth was certainly the impression I developed long ago talking to old men of my Grandfathers generation. Including my Grandfather who, as I have pointed out before, was a former seaman present on the day of the riot in Cardiff.

Now if you want to talk about the captains and officers and possibly some of the ship owners they certainly did consider themselves to be Welsh. Although that was not seen as being distinct from having a British identity the way it increasingly is today. I'm neutral myself all national identities suck.

 

[editor]

Highly unlikely among the common seamen of 1919 Cardiff. Many of said seamen would of course have hailed from the Old Commonwealth countries, the USA and other parts of Europe.

You seem to be forgetting about the the indigenous rail workers, crane operators, admin staff, supply staff, dock workers, tug crews, clerks, boarding house/hotel staff, cafe owners, landlords, signalmen, bar staff, cleaners, roadsweepers, lamplighters, shopowners, fishermen, milkmen, newsagents etc etc who would all be living in the same area.

I suspect they'd all be calling themselves 'Welsh', just like they do now.

When was the last time you visited the Cardiff docks?

 

[neprimerimye]

You seem to be forgetting about the the indigenous rail workers, crane operators, admin staff, supply staff, dock workers, tug crews, clerks, boarding house/hotel staff, cafe owners, landlords, signalmen, bar staff, cleaners, roadsweepers, lamplighters, shopowners, fishermen, milkmen, newsagents etc etc who would all be living in the same area.

I suspect they'd all be calling themselves 'Welsh', just like they do now.

When was the last time you visited the Cardiff docks?

The 'Indigenous' workers were for the most part the result of then quite recent in-migration from all over Britain but many, as with my own family, from the West Country. Remember only a very few decades previous to these events Cardiff amounted to very little.

The opinion that these workers thought of themselves as having a primary Welsh identity as you assert is not one held by historians. Nor is it an opinion ever heard from family friends who worked in those self same docks, as well as Barry and Penarth docks come to that, prior to the Second Imperialist World War.

I first visited the docks in the 1950's and was regularly in the area until the early 1980's. Does it matter when I last visited Cardiff docks (the day before yesterday as a matter of fact) it has no bearing on events in 1919 unless you happen to have a Tardis going spare.

If you are trying, rather ineptly, to make the point that I'm an outsider to the area then you are barking up the wrong tree my friend. The events of 1919 and the history of the docks in this area are part of my family background. One Grandfather came here as a boy sailor and sailed out of Cardiff for decades. Another fought the blitz there and did business there every week of his life for decades. Pretty much all the older members of my family worked in the Cardiff docks area at one point or another and many family friends worked as dockers.

With all due respect i value the knowledge of those family members and friends, all long dead, who knew the docks area as far back as the 1880's far more than I do your opinion. For that matter I also value the professional views of trained historians more than I do the inanities of those who would falsify history in the name of nationalist prejudices.

 

[editor]

The opinion that these workers thought of themselves as having a primary Welsh identity as you assert is not one held by historians.

I wasn't just referring to just workers, actually, but could you provide a source that says that the ovewhelming majority of people living and working in and around the Cardiff docks area didn't think of themselves as Welsh please?

You are aware, of course, that the Bute West Dock was built as far back as 1839 (Bute East Dock in1855) and that over 50 collieries (mainly from Aberdare & Merthyr Tydfil) had offices in the docks area of Cardiff?

Who do you think staffed them if not Welsh people?

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

views of trained historians more than I do the inanities of those who would falsify history in the name of nationalist prejudices.

Every Historian has their own point of view/angle or agenda don't they. Take two differing accounts of say the Gullf War, even eye witnesses will differ based on bias, political,cultural,religious.

HAve you ever written down your famillies views, thoughts as they sound like they'd be good reading. Before you get too old yourself like

Re the Welshness of Cardiff, true it was a melting pot, but there was a lot on internal migration, also Irish, West Country, Hereford way.
My Great Grandparents ( like most of that age Came to Cardiff ), 7 out of the 8 were Welsh ( from Llandeilo to Newcastle Emlyn ),the other ( the black sheep was from Wells ).

 

[Brockway]

the other ( the black sheep was from Wells ).

It's all coming out now - yer fecking carrot-cruncher.

Any idea why Newtown was knocked down? Seems odd that an Irish area and an ethnic area, the Docks, were levelled when the housing stock in those places was no different than say... Splott or Canton.

My mother reckons that the remnants of Catholic/Protestant tensions we normally associate with cities like Glasgow and Liverpool was still evident in Grangetown in the Fifties.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

It's all coming out now - yer fecking carrot-cruncher.

Any idea why Newtown was knocked down? Seems odd that an Irish area and an ethnic area, the Docks, were levelled when the housing stock in those places was no different than say... Splott or Canton.

My mother reckons that the remnants of Catholic/Protestant tensions we normally associate with cities like Glasgow and Liverpool was still evident in Grangetown in the Fifties.

My mamgu hates thes bloody Irish ( always fighting on Cyfartha St ).
She says that if it went off there, the police wouldn't go in, but called for the priest to sort it out as he was the only one they'd listen too.

Someone else told me the Swansea/Cardiff rivallry was prod/cath based, but I think this is stretching it a bit.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

It's all coming out now - yer fecking carrot-cruncher.
QUOTE]

Have you ever seen me drink cider?

No?

It's an attempt to deny my heritage

 

[editor]

Someone else told me the Swansea/Cardiff rivallry was prod/cath based, but I think this is stretching it a bit.

Some Swansea fans certainly have an allegiance with Ulster (I've seen a few flags being flapped about, along with Union Jacks), but I reckon the Cardiff fans are more of a heathen bunch!

I've never heard any religious-based chants coming from the Cardiff crowd. Ever.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

Some Swansea fans certainly have an allegiance with Ulster (I've seen a few flags being flapped about, along with Union Jacks), but I reckon the Cardiff fans are more of a heathen bunch!

I've never heard any religious-based chants coming from the Cardiff crowd. Ever.

Never???

The shitty Swansea city went around to see the Pope
( apparently he told them to fuck off ).

Have you seen the Jack Army site, they've got a poll about whether a racist song about Sam Hamman should be banned or not ( it's a close no at present), but in fairness there are a lot of Jacks thinking their racist lot are wankers.

 

[editor]

N
The shitty Swansea city went around to see the Pope
( apparently he told them to fuck off ).

Forgot that one, although I've never quite got the religious message in there!

I'm not tarring all Jacks with the same brush here, but I've always been mystified by their love for Union Jacks. Start waving one of the around in the Grange End and it wouldn't last long!

 

[neprimerimye]

Every Historian has their own point of view/angle or agenda don't they. Take two differing accounts of say the Gullf War, even eye witnesses will differ based on bias, political,cultural,religious.

HAve you ever written down your famillies views, thoughts as they sound like they'd be good reading. Before you get too old yourself like

Re the Welshness of Cardiff, true it was a melting pot, but there was a lot on internal migration, also Irish, West Country, Hereford way.
My Great Grandparents ( like most of that age Came to Cardiff ), 7 out of the 8 were Welsh ( from Llandeilo to Newcastle Emlyn ),the other ( the black sheep was from Wells ).

Sure historians have their own agenda. As a Marxist I'm not going to deny my own bias is towards emphasising the class aspects of questions. What I will not do is distort the historical record to make my class look better and in the case of the Cardiff riot it's even more personal than that.

Which is why I object strongly to nationalist interpretations of the events of the early years of the 20th century ce. A simplistic interpretation of the expression of a Welsh identity does not come close to an understanding of what that meant to a polyglot cosmopolitan community that was in constant flux. It would appear to be pretty universally accepted that the predominant expression of identity in the cardiff of the early 20th century was indeed british and Labourite just as much as it was in any other city in mainland britain. Which does not deny that within this identity we must include a Welsh identitfying element.

As for my family's history and views. Well I was born old and more importantly the generation that had stories to tell is gone. In any case the identity which they, in common with most of their class, adopted was British and Labourist. I loath both.

Oral history is in any case untrustworthy unless one has documentation to corroborate it as it becomes distorted very easily. This is of course made more problematic when one attempts to recount the half remembered memories of others. Some time ago i read the transcripts of interviews of some old time revolutionaries and then compared them to the work that was, in part, based on their memories. A very curious experience as it appeaered that they would regularly misdate events or mixx people up. But when used with contemporaneous published materials invaluable.

 

[Funky_monks]

It is a fantastic museum and well worth a visit.

The Rhondda Heritage Park is just up the way from my missus, anyone been there? Any Good?

I'll get mesel' to Pwll Mawr one of these weekends too.....

 

[editor]

It would appear to be pretty universally accepted that the predominant expression of identity in the cardiff of the early 20th century was indeed british and Labourite just as much as it was in any other city in mainland britain.

Source, please.

 

[editor]

It's worth noting that at the turn of the century, 64% of the population of the Rhondda still spoke Welsh, and, of course, Wales was quite a different politically to most of England, with the Tories famously failing to win a single Welsh parliamentary seat in 1906.

Works such as Idris Davies’s famous poem of the 1926 General Strike, The Angry Summer, or Richard Llewellyn’s novel How Green Was My Valley, published in 1939, heightened an awareness of the Welshness of the non-Welsh-speaking areas of Wales.
http://tinyurl.com/a2rg6

This is interesting too: Political Conditions in Wales
Are Quite Different ...’ party politics and votes for women in Wales, 1912–15

 

[neprimerimye]

It's worth noting that at the turn of the century, 64% of the population of the Rhondda still spoke Welsh, and, of course, Wales was quite a different politically to most of England, with the Tories famously failing to win a single Welsh parliamentary seat in 1906.

'The turn of the century' was five years ago. Are you seriously suggesting that five years ago a majority of the population of the Rhondda spoke Welsh?

And what relevance does that have to the situation in Cardiff?

 

[editor]

'The turn of the century' was five years ago. Are you seriously suggesting that five years ago a majority of the population of the Rhondda spoke Welsh?

I didn't say the "last" century and I would have thought it was blazingly obvious which century I was referring to seeing as I was referring to the links contained in my post (you did read them before hitting 'send post', yes?)



I think the political allegiance and the strength of Welsh culture in south Wales is significant seeing as you're busily trying to lump the entire Cardiff population into some sort of homegemous 'British' mass.

 

[neprimerimye]

Source, please.

It would seem pretty damn obvious that the working class of Cardiff saw itself in Labourite terms given that voting patterns and trade union membership show patterns identical to those in the rest of Britain in the period concerned.

As for the working class in Cardiff identifying as British again I would suggest that this is proven by what happened in 1914 when they volunteered in similar proportions to fight for the bosses. In my terms to die for the proprietors of UK PLC.

If you want written sources for these assertions then I can only suggest a reading of the many general histories of Wales and of Cardiff will provide evidence in abundance.

Gotta run a two year old is screaming the joint down.

 

[editor]

As for the working class in Cardiff identifying as British again I would suggest that this is proven by what happened in 1914 when they volunteered in similar proportions to fight for the bosses. In my terms to die for the proprietors of UK PLC.

Hold on - you've been emphatically claiming that it's "universally accepted" that the "predominant expression of identity in the cardiff of the early 20th century was indeed british" - and now you're saying you can't find a single source for that claim?

Just because Welsh people fought in WW1 that doesn't make them any less Welsh or mean that they think of themselves as British first.