cardiff's golden jubilee: but where was the previous capital?

[editor]

There's some stuff about the Italian immigration into south Wales in the Big Pit museum, btw.

 

[Belushi]

There's some stuff about the Italian immigration into south Wales in the Big Pit museum, btw.

I've never actrually been there so I must go next time I'm back in the old country. There was an interesting doc on Radio 4 last year about the Italians in S. Wales.

 

[Brockway]

The Valleys Italians were certainly well established by the 1930s. You can read about them in books by Gwyn Thomas when he talks about the Depression.

There was a 'Spanish Town' in Cardiff docks - George Street behind The Packet apparently. There's a good piece on it in Neil Sinclair's The Tiger Bay Story, a great book you can get from the Butetown History and Art Museum.

 

[Belushi]

The Valleys Italians were certainly well established by the 1930s. You can read about them in books by Gwyn Thomas when he talks about the Depression.

My Dad tells me that in Abercrave they were treated with suspicion at first until one of them stabbed a bullying Mine Manager, after that they were a valued part of the community

 

[editor]

I've never actrually been there so I must go next time I'm back in the old country.

It is a fantastic museum and well worth a visit.

 

[niclas]

The Spanish community in Abercraf was quite distinct. From "Miners Against Fascism" it appears they fled after the failed Asturian workers' rebellion in 1934 (syndicalist miners put down by Franco) and - being miners - settled in the anthracite belt in W Wales.

2 of the community were killed after they went back to Spain to fight Franco with the International Brigade.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

It whows a tolerance to new immigrants that you could argue modern capials need.

We all support tolerance, but don't forget that in 1919 Cardiff saw "race riots" or more acurately mass racist attacks against these same immigrants and settler populations - Good account in Peter Fryer's excellent history of black people in britain - "Staying Power"

 

[Belushi]

The Spanish community in Abercraf was quite distinct. From "Miners Against Fascism" it appears they fled after the failed Asturian workers' rebellion in 1934 (syndicalist miners put down by Franco) and - being miners - settled in the anthracite belt in W Wales.

2 of the community were killed after they went back to Spain to fight Franco with the International Brigade.

Aye, my grandad knew them both, one of them was a Zamora, I think can't recall the other ones name.

 

[Brockway]

We all support tolerance, but don't forget that in 1919 Cardiff saw "race riots" or more acurately mass racist attacks against these same immigrants and settler populations - Good account in Peter Fryer's excellent history of black people in britain - "Staying Power"

I recently stumbled across the grave of the arab guy who died in the 1919 race riots. It refers to the incident on his gravestone. In newspaper accounts of the time he is referred to as: "and an arab". There were 3 deaths - 2 white men, 1 black. The arab man was called Mohammed Abdullah.

There were anti-Chinese riots in Cardiff in 1912 and, as has been discussed on here before, the 'Johnny Hop' incident of 1922 which was also deeply racist.

Yup, Staying Power is a good read.

 

[Belushi]

There was also anti-Jewish riots in the valleys at the same period, not sure why.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

I recently stumbled across the grave of the arab guy who died in the 1919 race riots. It refers to the incident on his gravestone. In newspaper accounts of the time he is referred to as: "and an arab". There were 3 deaths - 2 white men, 1 black. The arab man was called Mohammed Abdullah.

There were anti-Chinese riots in Cardiff in 1912 and, as has been discussed on here before, the 'Johnny Hop' incident of 1922 which was also deeply racist.

Yup, Staying Power is a good read.

And Irish race riots ( no need for prolonged debate whether being Irish is a race ). The site below is intersting for some history.
Cardiff police
It does say you can book to go round their museum, anyone been.
I'm a bit scared but would like to.

 

[Brockway]

I think it was near Bargoed. A Welsh pogrom!

There has been loads of stuff written on Welsh/Jewish links and supposed similarities between the two peoples. From us being the one of lost tribes of Israel to 90% of the Treforest industrial estate being taken up after the war by Jewish entrepreneurs fleeing Nazi Germany.

 

[editor]

There was also anti-Jewish riots in the valleys at the same period, not sure why.

There was an old film about that, where a Welsh woman fell in love with a Jewish bloke as the town was busy rioting.

 

[neprimerimye]

Yeah but with regards the Italians was it simple economic migrancy or was there something going on in Italy that caused the exodus?

The jewish writer/documentary film-maker Jon Ronson who is from Cardiff, says his Lithuanian forefathers were escaping pogroms in the east. They were on their way to New York but simply ran out of money, so ended up staying in Cardiff. I'm sure a lot of people got to Cardiff intending to go to New York, found work and decided to stay. Certainly the Cardiff to New York shipping run was very active (see Eugene O'Neill's Bound East For Cardiff).

One of my grandfather's was in the merchant navy and we donated his log books to the Industrial and Maritime Museum when it was in Cardiff. Unfortunately the museum has now moved to Swansea and taken our family heritage with it!

As far as I'm aware the migration of Italians to South Wales was for economic reasons. Most coming from the underdeveloped south. At the same time there was massive migration to the then industrializing north of Italy. And in the 1930's a pretty large chunk of the French working class was Italian (or, similar to UK now, Polish). Why a relatively small group decided to come to South Wales and then spread out across the entire region I have no idea. Some bright young thing will write a Phd one day no doubt.

 

[editor]

There was an old film about that, where a Welsh woman fell in love with a Jewish bloke as the town was busy rioting.

<finishes research....>

It was called Solomon and Gaenor, featured Ioan Gruffudd, was recorded in three languages - Welsh, English and Yiddish - and nominated for an Oscar!

Anyone seen it? It's great!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/643986.stm

 

[neprimerimye]

We all support tolerance, but don't forget that in 1919 Cardiff saw "race riots" or more acurately mass racist attacks against these same immigrants and settler populations - Good account in Peter Fryer's excellent history of black people in britain - "Staying Power"

Which goes to disprove your statement that 'we all support tolerance'. Obviously the men rioting were not particularly tolerant.

It also shows the limitations of trades unionism. Given that these riots were formented by a trade union leader.

 

[editor]

Which goes to disprove your statement that 'we all support tolerance'. Obviously the men rioting were not particularly tolerant.

That all depends on the reasons behind the riot, surely?

 

[pembrokestephen]

Probably something to do with it being one of the world's biggest ports, the city with the largest population in Wales, its closer proximity to London, its excellent transport links and - thanks to the coal trade - it being the commercial powerhouse of Wales.

But apart from THAT, why is Cardiff the capital of Wales...

(and what have the Romans ever done for us?)

 

[phildwyer]

Many Jews fleeing Eastern Europe on the other hand were landed in London and told it was New York.

I met some Chınese guys ın Haıtı who,d been dropped there by snakeheads and told ıt was Mıamı!

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

Dont know if this is exactly true-but the story i heard was that unscrupulous Ship-owners would agree to take hard-up Italians to New York and then dump them off in Cardiff instead.
Apparently a fair few of these new arrivals were none the wiser for many years.

Unscruplous Ships Capt.. slaps head and says ' I thought you said Newport!'

 

[1927]

I feel a commando raid coming on!

The older Italians in Splott seem to have come after the war, so it may well have been economic then.

I know a Sicilian fmaily in Cardiff. All the brothers came over after the war to work in the steel works in Port Talbot. They were on the train and seeing the steel works at eats Moors thought they had arrived,and got off the train at Cardiff Central and never left. Boy did they have a lucky escape!

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

I know a Sicilian fmaily in Cardiff. All the brothers came over after the war to work in the steel works in Port Talbot. They were on the train and seeing the steel works at eats Moors thought they had arrived,and got off the train at Cardiff Central and never left. Boy did they have a lucky escape!

Eats Moors ??? are you some sort of crusader?

 

[Belushi]

<finishes research....>

It was called Solomon and Gaenor, featured Ioan Gruffudd, was recorded in three languages - Welsh, English and Yiddish - and nominated for an Oscar!

Anyone seen it? It's great!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/643986.stm

Hadn't heard of it, I will have to get hold of a copy.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

That all depends on the reasons behind the riot, surely?

The Chinese ones were because returning sailors/soldiers from WW1 found that their jobs had been given to Chinamen ( who weren't allowed to servs ), and some of 'our' ladies had shacked up with them Scandalous

 

[editor]

The Chinese ones were because returning sailors/soldiers from WW1 found that their jobs had been given to Chinamen ( who weren't allowed to servs ), and some of 'our' ladies had shacked up with them Scandalous

I think I'd be a smidgeon above 'slightly irate' if I came back from a shitty time fighting in WW1 to find my job gone and my missus shacked up with another fella too.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

I think I'd be a smidgeon above 'slightly irate' if I came back from a shitty time fighting in WW1 to find my job gone and my missus shacked up with another fella too.

True, although they're classed as race riots, the underlying cause I feel is more likely to be a social one than pure hatred of the Chinese.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Which goes to disprove your statement that 'we all support tolerance'. Obviously the men rioting were not particularly tolerant.

It also shows the limitations of trades unionism. Given that these riots were formented by a trade union leader.

The "we" in question, was those on writing on this thread - not society at large.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

Regarding the we, yes Cardiff has had problems, but they eased off with the passing of the years, time and integration are the factors here.
By the time Cardiff was made capital they were in the past, and although I'm not saying in 1955 we were perfect (or are now ), Notting Hill was still to come for other places.

 

[lewislewis]

Probably something to do with it being one of the world's biggest ports, the city with the largest population in Wales, its closer proximity to London, its excellent transport links and - thanks to the coal trade - it being the commercial powerhouse of Wales.

Indeed editor, could say the commercial powerhouse of the world in terms of coal trade.

 

[Ben Bore]

It was called Solomon and Gaenor, featured Ioan Gruffudd, was recorded in three languages - Welsh, English and Yiddish - and nominated for an Oscar!

Anyone seen it? It's great!

Hadn't heard of it, I will have to get hold of a copy.

Yeah I've seen it. It's just been released again in a box set with 3 other Welsh films (including Hedd Wyn) if anyone's interested. See this posting on me blog