CARDIFF MPs support life sentence for Army Refuseniks

[RubberBuccaneer]

I also have a more profound disagreement with RubberBucaneer as I don't think that the military is a legitimate organisation and support resistance to the military by any means necessary.
.

That's irrelevant to my assertion.
In fact if you bothered to ask me I am profoundly anti-army as was most of the communists and anarchists used to be.
We hated soldiers. Now you support them...when did it change?

And how do I support killing 19,00 people a day read my posts i show no support for the government or the army, go on read them

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

T

Let me introduce a scenario:

Someone joins the army, not knowing much about the way the world works, over a period time serving in Iraq, they discover that the ordinary Iraqi people don't want them there, they see war crimes being committed on a daily basis, and begin to question the morality of the war, they begin to think even more deeply and discover that the Iraq war had nothing to do with defending their country (the reason why they enlisted in the army) but was instead about oil and imperialism and oppressing a foreign people. They decide to desert the army.

This working class soldier is absolutely right: The Iraq war is an imperialist war waged by the rich and powerful.

Therefore I give him unconditional support, RubberBucaneer sides with the people who kill 19,000 children a day through global poverty.

tell me Udo do you think a working class soldier doesn't understand the risks of war,or doesn't understand global politics then.....?

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

Sorry to be voice of dissent here (BTW life prison is ridiculous ).

You sign up for a job, you know that job entails following orders and you give your reason and freedom away the minute you sign. Government then the army tells you what to do.

Why bitch about it when it comes unstuck?

You make your bed , etc.

This in no way in support of the war.

let me quote myself for you.
The fact is you join the army you get trained to kill people ( still a bad thing IMO), you run the risk of being kileed (see the top lines of teh army link, or use your common judgement ).
To say a young soldier doesn't realise this is condescending in the extreme.

You runthe risk you may pay the price ..what's there to argue with?

Firemen know the riskof joining the brigade, getting kileed is an occupational risk, except their not trained to kill people.

Last line of original quote in bold.
Read it.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

But this has gone so far off topic as to be now completely missing the point and its just distracting everyone off the original point of the thread

Are we REALLY happy for our local MP's ( who supposedly represent our views) to vote that people who refuse to serve in an occupation should be sentenced to LIFE imprisonment??

 

[lewislewis]

Looks like these MP's are standing in that same glorious tradition that shot those poor buggers in WW1 for 'cowardice'.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

But this has gone so far off topic as to be now completely missing the point and its just distracting everyone off the original point of the thread

Are we REALLY happy for our local MP's ( who supposedly represent our views) to vote that people who refuse to serve in an occupation should be sentenced to LIFE imprisonment??

No

 

[Udo Erasmus]

How Your MP Voted

"[John Mcdonnell MP] . . .Amendment No. 9 emphasises the fact that life imprisonment is a disproportionate sentence that does not relate to the reality of a modern Army—an Army that is based upon volunteers and professionals, and which, as we all agree, is in most instances motivated by moral courage. Such an Army should not be motivated by, or threatened by, fear of such a sanction. On that basis, I shall press amendment No. 9 to a Division."
Amendment proposed: No. 9, in page 5, line 18, leave out from ‘offence' to ‘must' in line 20. —[John McDonnell.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—


The Committee divided: Ayes 19, Noes 442.
Division No. 245]
[6.14 pm

AYES
Austin, John
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Cohen, Harry
Corbyn, Jeremy
Etherington, Bill
Flynn, Paul
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Hosie, Stewart
Jones, Lynne
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
MacNeil, Mr. Angus
McDonnell, John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Wishart, Pete
Tellers for the Ayes:Mr. Neil Gerrard and
Kelvin Hopkins

NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Afriyie, Adam
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Alexander, Danny
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Austin, Mr. Ian
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Balls, Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Baron, Mr. John
Barrett, John
Bayley, Hugh
Bell, Sir Stuart
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benton, Mr. Joe
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Betts, Mr. Clive
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bottomley, Peter Brady, Mr. Graham
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brooke, Annette
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Browning, Angela
Bruce, Malcolm
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Butler, Ms Dawn
Butterfill, Sir John
Byers, rh Mr. Stephen
Byrne, Mr. Liam
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Caton, Mr. Martin
Challen, Colin
Chaytor, Mr. David
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clark, Greg
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clegg, Mr. Nick
Clelland, Mr. David
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Conway, Derek
Cook, Frank
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, Yvette
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curry, rh Mr. David
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice and Howden)
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dorries, Mrs. Nadine
Drew, Mr. David
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Farrelly, Paul
Farron, Tim
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Field, Mr. Mark
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, Caroline
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Don
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Fox, Dr. Liam
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Francois, Mr. Mark
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Gilroy, Linda
Goldsworthy, Julia
Goodman, Helen
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Grayling, Chris
Greening, Justine
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hague, rh Mr. William
Hall, Patrick
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harris, Mr. Tom
Harvey, Nick
Havard, Mr. Dai
Hayes, Mr. John
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Healey, John
Heath, Mr. David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendry, Charles
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Herbert, Nick
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Holmes, Paul
Hope, Phil
Horam, Mr. John
Howarth, David
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Glenda
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Mr. Boris
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Mr. David
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khabra, Mr. Piara S.
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Lammy, Mr. David
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Lepper, David
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Loughton, Tim
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Luff, Peter
MacDougall, Mr. John
Mackinlay, Andrew
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Marris, Rob
Marshall, Mr. David
Martlew, Mr. Eric
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McFall, rh Mr. John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, Mrs. Anne
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
McNulty, Mr. Tony
Meale, Mr. Alan
Mercer, Patrick
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, Edward
Miller, Andrew
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moore, Mr. Michael
Moran, Margaret
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Mr. Elliot
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, Mr. George
Mulholland, Greg
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Oaten, Mr. Mark
Olner, Mr. Bill
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, Mr. George
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Paice, Mr. James
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penrose, John
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Prescott, rh Mr. John Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Prosser, Gwyn
Pugh, Dr. John
Purnell, James
Rammell, Bill
Randall, Mr. John
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Rennie, Willie
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, John
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rogerson, Mr. Dan
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Ruddock, Joan
Ruffley, Mr. David
Russell, Bob
Russell, Christine
Ryan, Joan
Salter, Martin
Scott, Mr. Lee
Seabeck, Alison
Selous, Andrew
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Sheridan, Jim
Simmonds, Mark
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Slaughter, Mr. Andrew
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, John
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Spelman, Mrs. Caroline
Spink, Bob
Stanley, rh Sir John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Stewart, Ian
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tami, Mark
Taylor, David
Taylor, Matthew
Teather, Sarah
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Thurso, John
Timms, Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Twigg, Derek
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Ussher, Kitty
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Vaz, Keith
Viggers, Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Webb, Steve
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Winterton, Ms Rosie
Woodward, Mr. Shaun
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Jeremy
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Yeo, Mr. Tim
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Noes:Mr. Michael Foster and
Huw Irranca-Davies

 

[llantwit]

... RubberBucaneer sides with the people who kill 19,000 children a day through global poverty.

Fuck me Udo - are you 12 or something? And more to the point, did you read what RB posted? That's not what he said at all, and you can't surmise that from what he did say, either. Sort it out.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

Having read that List I feel more ill
Thats appalling

 

[llantwit]

It is shocking LMHF - fucking shame on them all.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

No

so rather than sitting here making obvious coments which I think most of us agree with in terms of they should know what they are getting themselves into etc
what exactly could we do about this completely vile injustice that our MP's are using and abusing their position as 'voice of the people' in order to implement

I dont think any of them have the first fucking clue what a life sentence means fucking arseholes sat in their ivory towers gfoing OOH yes put them away for life

absolute cnuts ( and I dont usually get this effin angry about many things)
we need to so something about this, even if we cannot do anything about the whole situation, its only when this law is used against someone the british public will go how the hell did that happen??

 

[HST]

I thought I'd seen it all. I was wrong.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

so rather than sitting here making obvious coments which I think most of us agree with in terms of they should know what they are getting themselves into etc

obviously it wasn't obvious or agreed with by a lot of people on this thread.

Raise the profile is all I can say, think of the posthumous pardone that were requested for the WW1 deserters who were accused of cowardice...theor relatives were on the TV a lot ? maybe contact them????

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

obviously it wasn't obvious or agreed with by a lot of people on this thread.

Raise the profile is all I can say, think of the posthumous pardone that were requested for the WW1 deserters who were accused of cowardice...theor relatives were on the TV a lot ? maybe contact them????

nah I think people just got into argiung semantics innit?

I cant believe this isnt already all over the political news
particularly in certain sections of the meejah you'd have thought they would be having a field day

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

Shot at Dwn Campaign
http://www.shotatdawn.org.uk/

 

[Fruitloop]

CAn't see anything about aftercare in there, where is it?unless it's this bit;

In return, British soldiers must always be able to expect fair treatment, to be valued and respected as individuals, and that they (and their families) will be sustained and rewarded by commensurate terms and conditions of service
It's a bit vague but I suppose you could challenge your aftercare in court under ' will be sustained'

Althought the very first lines of it are;
Soldiers will be called upon to make personal sacrifices - including the ultimate sacrifice - in the service of the Nation. In putting the needs of the Nation and the Army before their own, they forego some of the rights enjoyed by those outside the Armed Forces


Which I think can't be made clearer

Yeah, that and:

This mutual obligation forms the Military Covenant between the Nation, the Army and each individual soldier; an unbreakable common bond of identity, loyalty and responsibility which has sustained the Army throughout its history.

Which I think pretty much spells it out. Maybe not specific enough for legal action though, it's true.

 

[Col_Buendia]

RB sorry for not coming back sooner but I've been a bit busy recently.

let me quote myself for you.
The fact is you join the army you get trained to kill people ( still a bad thing IMO), you run the risk of being kileed (see the top lines of teh army link, or use your common judgement ).
To say a young soldier doesn't realise this is condescending in the extreme.

I agree with what you have said, but imo that is not the whole picture. Therefore the analogy that you make with the Fire service doesn't stand, imo.

You runthe risk you may pay the price ..what's there to argue with?

Firemen know the riskof joining the brigade, getting kileed is an occupational risk, except their not trained to kill people.

Y'see, the point I was trying to make is that I don't think the young folk that sign up for the army (and this is just my opinion, not the result of careful research or investigation!) are aware of all the other aspects of a service life. It would be pretty naive to think that they aren't aware that there is a risk of death, and obvious the forces need to play off this in some sort of fucked up glamorous sense. But once you've got past the shiny killing machines (and the obvious mirror image that the other side will have shiny ones to use on you), there are the issues of post-service welfare and support that have already been raised.

That is what I am focussing on, and why I object to the one-sided nature of the way recruitment stalls present the army experience. I certainly have no doubt that most 16yr olds, be they w/class or whatever, are more than capable of making sensible decisions, once they have been provided with accurate information and given the chance to discuss & digest it.

(Btw, if somebody is suggesting that you support the "murder" of 19,000 children a day, that is ludicrous. Your posts have been clear enough to me, and that's not what they are saying. FWIW )