Cardiff Bay Incinerator - public meeting, Sat 7th Feb

[Paul Shackson]

@PAD10H

The proposed Energy from Waste facility would process residual wastes after recyclables and other potentially useful materials have been removed. Residual waste is everyday waste from homes, businesses and industry that remains after all practical efforts have been made to extract recyclable and compostable material. No hazardous wastes would be processed at the facility.

The full capacity of the Energy from Waste plant – 350,000 tonnes per annum – takes into account the waste needs of the surrounding area and allows for successful waste prevention and for future increases in recycling rates (i.e. achieving the challenging recycling targets set by WAG).

There are twenty similar plants operating across the UK, and many more across Europe, which operate alongside high levels of recycling.

If planning permission is received, Viridor may be in a position to bid to provide waste management services to Prosiect Gwyrdd – a regional waste partnership bringing together Caerphilly Borough County Council, The County Council of the City and County of Cardiff, Monmouthshire County Council, Newport Council and Vale of Glamorgan Council. The Welsh Assembly Government is providing funding to Prosiect Gwyrdd on the basis that a minimum of 70% recycling is achieved.

 

[Paul Shackson]

@llantwit

The air pollution control system forms an integral part of the plant and will treat all flue gas prior to emission to ensure that emissions will meet the stringent EU Waste Incineration Directive (WID) (2000/76/EC) standards, and importantly would ensure that they do not compromise local air quality standards set by local authorities.

Viridor is supportive of waste prevention and recycling. It is one of the leading recycling companies in the UK and also supports waste prevention initiatives with local authority and private sector customers. However, there is some waste that simply can’t be recycled or composted, and the proposed Energy from Waste plant would process these materials. The proposed facility would use tried and tested technology and is designed to run alongside high levels of recycling. There are many examples of such plants which operate alongside high levels of recycling (many EU countries with the best recycling rates have complementary higher usage of energy recovery for residuals), such as in Denmark, Holland, Sweden and there are twenty such plants safely operating in the UK.

Viridor remains committed to open, accountable and on-going dialogue with communities and stakeholders in all operation areas. They have stated that they would establish a community liaison group at Trident Park should planning consent be granted.

Fees are commercially sensitive so I can’t go into detail on those.

 

[Paul Shackson]

@shygirl

Viridor decided to use a site in Cardiff because this is where the largest volume of waste in south Wales is created.

We chose Trident Park after considering many others using detailed assessment criteria. It is a heavily industrialised brownfield site, with good transport links, etc. The site and its surroundings formed part of the East Moors Steelworks that closed in 1978. Following its reclamation the Nippon Electric Glass (UK) Limited developed a cathode ray tube components factory on the land, which ceased production in 2005.

Also, the location of the Trident Park site, in close proximity to the civic centres of Cardiff and Cardiff Bay, represents an excellent opportunity for the implementation of a district heating scheme.

 

[Paul Shackson]

@lewislewis

The Energy from Waste facility will generate significant amounts of energy and the potential exists to utilise excess heat generated by the facility in local homes and businesses. Retro-fitting existing housing stock is unlikely to be financially viable or environmentally beneficial. Discussions have already taken place and will continue in an attempt to secure potential heat users prior to the commissioning of the plant The Energy from Waste facility will also generate up to 30 Megawatts of electricity a year to be exported to the National Grid. Again it is unlikely that this will result in any difference to local household energy bills as there is no mechanism to influence this with the power companies.

The plant will be monitored by the Environment Agency – the Government regulator. The air monitoring measurements data will be on public record at any given time and full transparency would operate via a site liaison group with community representatives. What other organisation do you have in mind for monitoring? Give me a call and we can discuss this further - 029 2034 0511

 

[Paul Shackson]

@jimadore

I live in Cardiff, and there are a lot of benefits to the proposed Energy from Waste facility, including:
i) It will divert a significant volume of waste away from landfill. Landfill sites generate methane, which is a powerful greenhouse gas;
ii) It will helps local authorities to meet the Landfill Directive diversion targets whilst offsetting the significant economic impact of increasing Landfill Tax;
iii) The electricity generated will offset the emission of 43,500 tonnes of Carbon per annum which would otherwise be emitted through fossil fuel fired electricity generation.

The EC Waste Incineration Directive sets very stringent limits for the proposed Energy from Waste facility. The potential impact of emissions has been tested time and time again, not only in the planning arena, but through authorisations being granted by the regulators for the development of Energy from Waste facilities in urban environments.

There will be no hazardous waste processed at the site.

Energy from Waste facilities are extremely effective at preventing the production and release of particulates and dioxins and are only allowed to operate where dioxin levels equivalent to the existing background levels in urban soils. Dioxins are actually emitted by a number of sources such as bonfires, jet engines, various industrial processes, and open fires in the home and energy from waste accounts for less than 1% of UK production.

The Transport Assessment has been carried out and has concluded that in total the facility will generate the movement of approximately 256 HGV vehicles per day i.e. 128 lorries going to the plant and 128 lorries leaving the plant. In the context of the existing and forecast traffic flows, the additional trips generated by the Energy from Waste facility and its associated activities represent an increase of less than 3% on the existing flow of traffic on the adjacent highway network during peak times. It is important to note that this is less traffic than used the site when it was the NEG plant.

Viridor is one of the UK’s leading recycling and waste management companies. It currently operates over 240 waste management facilities (including a clinical energy from waste plant next to Derriford Hospital in Plymouth) providing a range of services from recycling and composting through to waste treatment and disposal across the UK. The technology provider chosen by Viridor for Trident Park is CNIM, which has built 8 out of the 20 operating plants in the UK and many more elsewhere.

 

[poisondwarf]

@jimadore

I live in Cardiff, and there are a lot of benefits to the proposed Energy from Waste facility, including:
i) It will divert a significant volume of waste away from landfill. Landfill sites generate methane, which is a powerful greenhouse gas;
ii) It will helps local authorities to meet the Landfill Directive diversion targets whilst offsetting the significant economic impact of increasing Landfill Tax;
iii) The electricity generated will offset the emission of 43,500 tonnes of Carbon per annum which would otherwise be emitted through fossil fuel fired electricity generation.

The EC Waste Incineration Directive sets very stringent limits for the proposed Energy from Waste facility. The potential impact of emissions has been tested time and time again, not only in the planning arena, but through authorisations being granted by the regulators for the development of Energy from Waste facilities in urban environments.

There will be no hazardous waste processed at the site.

Energy from Waste facilities are extremely effective at preventing the production and release of particulates and dioxins and are only allowed to operate where dioxin levels equivalent to the existing background levels in urban soils. Dioxins are actually emitted by a number of sources such as bonfires, jet engines, various industrial processes, and open fires in the home and energy from waste accounts for less than 1% of UK production.

The Transport Assessment has been carried out and has concluded that in total the facility will generate the movement of approximately 256 HGV vehicles per day i.e. 128 lorries going to the plant and 128 lorries leaving the plant. In the context of the existing and forecast traffic flows, the additional trips generated by the Energy from Waste facility and its associated activities represent an increase of less than 3% on the existing flow of traffic on the adjacent highway network during peak times. It is important to note that this is less traffic than used the site when it was the NEG plant.

Viridor is one of the UK’s leading recycling and waste management companies. It currently operates over 240 waste management facilities (including a clinical energy from waste plant next to Derriford Hospital in Plymouth) providing a range of services from recycling and composting through to waste treatment and disposal across the UK. The technology provider chosen by Viridor for Trident Park is CNIM, which has built 8 out of the 20 operating plants in the UK and many more elsewhere.

Where in Cardiff do you live though Paul? Is it near the proposed plant?

 

[llantwit]

Paul Shackson and his company

@ Paul: Thanks very much for replying to us all Paul. I hope we can all keep this channel of communication open, and debate further as things progress.

@ all: In the interests of transparency, and in order that we all know who we're talking with, here's some info about him and his company...

Paul is an experienced PR professional who's worked on a number of projects with PR firms in London, and is now working for Good Relations Wales here in Cardiff. His previous clients include many public sectore groups, but also the oil company Total (famous for human rights and environmental abuses worldwide).

From the GRW website: "Good Relations Wales is a leading edge communications consultancy. We apply strategic thinking to the process of creating, maintaining, enhancing and defending the reputation of private sector companies".

GRW specialises in (amongst other things) "community relations" and "crisis manageent". In PR parlance crisis management is all about managing crises in public perception of brands and corporations, not crises that affect you and me. Typical PR crises include the "management" of protest groups and environmental activists. At the moment Paul is involved with managing the community, but rest assured if we can get it together to raise some proper local awareness of the real picture around the incinerator, he'll quickly switch to "crisis management", and a full-on media war will begin in which the public and the PR firm vie for attention through the local press. The resources Viridor have at their disposal mean that they're advantaged from the start.

Amongst ther clients are Lafargue Aggregates (the concrete company - not an environmentally cuddly one, that), and the commercial property developer PMG who runs the Trident Park estate where they want to plonk the incinerator (so GRW has a 2nd vested interest in the incinerator itself in that another of its clients is the company selling the land).

Good Relations Wales is owned by Thatcher's favourite PR firm the industry giant Bell Pottinger, who have vociforously championed the nuclear power industry, BAE systems, McDonalds, Imperial Tobacco, and numerous dictators (recent ones including the Belarussian dictator Lukashenko - Lord Bell commented at the time "I don't see why my company should follow some arbitrary set of ethical values" -nice).

Bell Pottinger proudly claims to "advise clients in all the regulated sectors on how they can influence the political dynamics to the decisions that impact on their bottom line." In other words, , and their subsidiaries take money from rich businesses to try and influence politicians and the public so that these companies can become more profitable.

The public interest is not the PR man's concern; the botom line of their client is. I'll be taking what this polite and patient man, who speaks of transparency and dialogue, says with a hefty pinch of salt. I suggest we all do.

 

[poisondwarf]

@ Paul: Thanks very much for replying to us all Paul. I hope we can all keep this channel of communication open, and debate further as things progress.

@ all: In the interests of transparency, and in order that we all know who we're talking with, here's some info about him and his company...

Paul is an experienced PR professional who's worked on a number of projects with PR firms in London, and is now working for Good Relations Wales here in Cardiff. His previous clients include many public sectore groups, but also the oil company Total (famous for human rights and environmental abuses worldwide).

From the GRW website: "Good Relations Wales is a leading edge communications consultancy. We apply strategic thinking to the process of creating, maintaining, enhancing and defending the reputation of private sector companies".

GRW specialises in (amongst other things) "community relations" and "crisis manageent". In PR parlance crisis management is all about managing crises in public perception of brands and corporations, not crises that affect you and me. Typical PR crises include the "management" of protest groups and environmental activists. At the moment Paul is involved with managing the community, but rest assured if we can get it together to raise some proper local awareness of the real picture around the incinerator, he'll quickly switch to "crisis management", and a full-on media war will begin in which the public and the PR firm vie for attention through the local press. The resources Viridor have at their disposal mean that they're advantaged from the start.

Amongst ther clients are Lafargue Aggregates (the concrete company - not an environmentally cuddly one, that), and the commercial property developer PMG who runs the Trident Park estate where they want to plonk the incinerator (so GRW has a 2nd vested interest in the incinerator itself in that another of its clients is the company selling the land).

Good Relations Wales is owned by Thatcher's favourite PR firm the industry giant Bell Pottinger, who have vociforously championed the nuclear power industry, BAE systems, McDonalds, Imperial Tobacco, and numerous dictators (recent ones including the Belarussian dictator Lukashenko - Lord Bell commented at the time "I don't see why my company should follow some arbitrary set of ethical values" -nice).

Bell Pottinger proudly claims to "advise clients in all the regulated sectors on how they can influence the political dynamics to the decisions that impact on their bottom line." In other words, , and their subsidiaries take money from rich businesses to try and influence politicians and the public so that these companies can become more profitable.

The public interest is not the PR man's concern; the botom line of their client is. I'll be taking what this polite and patient man, who speaks of transparency and dialogue, says with a hefty pinch of salt. I suggest we all do.

Very interesting reading, thanks for that llantwit.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Llantwit is so cynical

 

[jimadore]

What make the grass grow green in texas ?

hi paul , silky smooth on you reply you are a P.R Guru, When thy bury me from breathing , your ultrafine dioxin or heart and lung probelms . I will think what a nice man ? will you get planning permission / hope not, can you also do cremation {sideline} ? you will have many customers, from your polluting incinerator it will make plenty of sick people in Cardiff , American heart asoc has all the figures on the {deaths }caused by incinerators micro particals. The french people may need one? but we dont !!! unless you give everyone in Cardiff free power for 20 years? and grow mushrooms in toxic waste.

 

[Col_Buendia]

The public interest is not the PR man's concern; the botom line of their client is.

That's it in a nutshell. And I don't think anyone, Paul included, has any illusions about that. But I wonder how much the local community swallow the PR-coated line of the company. Obviously, the company's job is to make money, but they come along with a lot of pretty display boards showing us how much this plant will benefit the local community. As if it was some sort of altruism. And I wonder if it carries any weight with my less sceptical neighbours...? (Paul, by the way, your last display board showed a picture of Cardiff centre with a lovely green field in front of it - our green future? Except the shot you put up was of Penarth Moors - the other side of the river. Deliberate mistake?)

Paul, did it not embarrass you at the meeting on Saturday to overhear how your colleagues struggled to explain to people who have lived in Splott all their lives where the actual site is? I heard suits trying to orient pensioners with reference to Ocean Way, and the steel works. Goodness, all you had to do was tell them it was down the road from Splott Market and everyone would have known where you meant. Symbolic of the company's lack of understanding of the local community? I would say so.

There was quite a current of anger simmering under the surface at that meeting, and it will be interesting to see where this leads. I am intrigued by Paul's appearance on this thread, but I also wonder are we perhaps facilitating his research on behalf of the big guns at Viridor by sharing this conversation with him? Like Llantwit said, Paul has an agenda. I don't. I just want to breath fresh air and not have my son's future polluted. That's not an agenda. That's what everyone in the world wants.

 

[llantwit]

That's not an agenda. That's what everyone in the world wants.

... except Virador and the PR companies they employ.

 

[penderyn2000]

If Viridor had really done their research they wouldn't have picked the area where Llantwit, Col Buendia and I all live, all with young children. I suggest we all get down to the next FOE meeting (3 March, Model Inn, 6.30) with a pile of our activist allies and really get this campaign going. Viridor's lackey, please note, this incinerator is not going to happen. I note you haven't replied to the question as to where you live but since you're obviously well remunerated for prostituting yourself to Viridor I think we can safely assume it isn't Splott, Adamsdown or Tremorfa.

 

[llantwit]

If Viridor had really done their research they wouldn't have picked the area where Llantwit, Col Buendia and I all live, all with young children. I suggest we all get down to the next FOE meeting (3 March, Model Inn, 6.30) with a pile of our activist allies and really get this campaign going. Viridor's lackey, please note, this incinerator is not going to happen. I note you haven't replied to the question as to where you live but since you're obviously well remunerated for prostituting yourself to Viridor I think we can safely assume it isn't Splott, Adamsdown or Tremorfa.

I'll try and get to that with you, penderyn, but I can't promise at the moment because of newfound parenting duties.

 

[Col_Buendia]

Llantwit junior, yesterday.

 

[llantwit]

Oy! Privacy rules!!!?!
What about those paeditricians!! Scum out!!!1!

Justice4Maddie

 

[ddraig]

Paul?

 

[PAD1OH]

I'd just like to point out - I left this thread because I didn't want to discuss the issue with a PR rep who, in fairness did a good job, but didn't answer the question.

Someone sent me this

Rathcoole incinerator proposal rejected

THE COMPANY behind a €250 million waste-to-energy plant proposed for Rathcoole in west Dublin is to meet its advisers this morning to see if there is any future for the plan, following announcement of its rejection yesterday by An Bord Pleanála.

The board’s strategic infrastructure division cited three reasons for refusing the project: the fact that the plant would be “in conflict” with the Dublin waste management plan which relies on the already-approved Poolbeg incinerator; traffic volumes and access to the N7; and the facility’s stack height which would constitute “an unacceptable risk of pollution of the environment”. (....)



The decision was also welcomed by a number of local politicians, among them the Fine Gael leader in the Seanad, Frances Fitzgerald, who gave evidence at the oral hearing. She said Fine Gael had “always maintained that Dublin didn’t need another incinerator, particularly now when a review of waste management strategy is under way”.

Ms Fitzgerald described the decision as “a complete victory for the communities of Rathcoole, Saggart, Clondalkin, Newcastle and Brittas . . . This is proof that if people unite and work solidly together, change for the better is possible.

 

[ddraig]

.

 

[Col_Buendia]

Paul?

To be fair, I'm not sure Paul's had a direct question lobbed back at him. I did ask him some things in my earlier post, but as they were more about opinions, he might not have wanted to answer.

So, here's a direct question for Paul (in several parts):

1. Will the incinerator need a guaranteed supply of waste in order to operate at a profit?
2. If yes, will our councils be expected to sign a contract wherein they guarantee supplying a given quantity of waste?
3. If yes, and they subsequently fail to provide the contractually guaranteed supply, what sanctions might then be imposed on them?
4. And finally, if the incinerator requires a guaranteed supply of waste to burn profitably, how can that be reconciled with an ambition to increase recycling levels? Surely the guarantee of a waste supply to an incinerator imposes a ceiling on ambitions to increase recycling?

I'd be curious to know some answers to those questions.

Although I entirely empathise with PAD10H's comment, and am not sure about the wisdom of discussing this with Paul like this.

 

[zog]

If Viridor had really done their research they wouldn't have picked the area where Llantwit, Col Buendia and I all live, all with young children. I suggest we all get down to the next FOE meeting (3 March, Model Inn, 6.30) with a pile of our activist allies and really get this campaign going. Viridor's lackey, please note, this incinerator is not going to happen. I note you haven't replied to the question as to where you live but since you're obviously well remunerated for prostituting yourself to Viridor I think we can safely assume it isn't Splott, Adamsdown or Tremorfa.

date noted.

also @ Paul. we'll be doing our best to fuck up your incinerator.

 

[Col_Buendia]

If Viridor had really done their research they wouldn't have picked the area where Llantwit, Col Buendia and I all live, all with young children. I suggest we all get down to the next FOE meeting (3 March, Model Inn, 6.30) with a pile of our activist allies and really get this campaign going. Viridor's lackey, please note, this incinerator is not going to happen. I note you haven't replied to the question as to where you live but since you're obviously well remunerated for prostituting yourself to Viridor I think we can safely assume it isn't Splott, Adamsdown or Tremorfa.

Well, the Model Inn seems to be closed at the mo, and I was working tonight, but does anyone have anything to report from FOE? I'm out of touch at the mo, and I see Paul has dropped out of the thread, but I think we need to get a local group going about this...

 

[lewislewis]

According to the Echo, a low-polluting waste cooker has been put up as a rival to the incinerators proposed by Viridor (Splott) and Covanta (Merthyr). Waste firm Sterecycle says that they would deal with 200,000 tonnes of municipal waste a year by essentially cooking it in a 40ft by 20ft steam cooker (called an autoclave) at the Newlands Road Industrial Estate in Trowbridge. The result would be that the metal and plastics would come out 'shiny' and could be sold to scrap metal dealers and reused, and the organic matter would come out as compost which could be used as a biomass fuel in a CHP facility on the site. Around 40 people could be employed.

Cardiff Friends of the Earth have apparently backed the plans. Enviroparks, a firm from Abergavenny, are also apparently going to propose a similar project. Some 'experts' are quoted in the paper saying that the recycled material produced by the steam cooker is low-grade and not very good.

This seems like a much cleaner alternative to me, than the bigger companies which would require far more waste than 200,000 tonnes to keep their energy facilities running. 200,000 is about the same amount of waste that the five nearby local authorities won't have the capacity to deal with, so it ticks the right boxes. I don't know much about the area but siting it on an industrial estate would seem like a sensitive and safe option.

Anyone know more about this?

 

[jimadore]

Hi lewis lewis, Sounds the right choice to me, no toxic waste lorrys on the roads, and no nasty dioxin in the air near the city

 

[ddraig]

According to the Echo, a low-polluting waste cooker has been put up as a rival to the incinerators proposed by Viridor (Splott) and Covanta (Merthyr). Waste firm Sterecycle says that they would deal with 200,000 tonnes of municipal waste a year by essentially cooking it in a 40ft by 20ft steam cooker (called an autoclave) at the Newlands Road Industrial Estate in Trowbridge. The result would be that the metal and plastics would come out 'shiny' and could be sold to scrap metal dealers and reused, and the organic matter would come out as compost which could be used as a biomass fuel in a CHP facility on the site. Around 40 people could be employed.

Cardiff Friends of the Earth have apparently backed the plans. Enviroparks, a firm from Abergavenny, are also apparently going to propose a similar project. Some 'experts' are quoted in the paper saying that the recycled material produced by the steam cooker is low-grade and not very good.

This seems like a much cleaner alternative to me, than the bigger companies which would require far more waste than 200,000 tonnes to keep their energy facilities running. 200,000 is about the same amount of waste that the five nearby local authorities won't have the capacity to deal with, so it ticks the right boxes. I don't know much about the area but siting it on an industrial estate would seem like a sensitive and safe option.

Anyone know more about this?

it is sterecycle. the address on the planning application is Newlands Road, Wentloog and the number is 09/246E.
there are 4 or 5 large files with it

 

[Col_Buendia]

Does anybody know anything about a FoE demo against the Viridor plan? I've heard a whisper from people who are on Facebook to say that there is something to this effect online, but I have to say that having left them my email at the last meeting, I find it wierd that they might be organising a demo and haven't bothered to email the very people who are most concerned about this...

 

[ddraig]

Wales online story aboput Sterecycle (apparently backed by FoE)
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/c...on-city-s-incinerator-project-91466-23096879/


can't seem to copy the text! grrr

in other news...U2 to play millennium stadium

 

[ddraig]

Does anybody know anything about a FoE demo against the Viridor plan? I've heard a whisper from people who are on Facebook to say that there is something to this effect online, but I have to say that having left them my email at the last meeting, I find it wierd that they might be organising a demo and haven't bothered to email the very people who are most concerned about this...

looks like it was yesterday but
the echo today has a report on it with a pic of some peeps in dust masks and a complaint about an FOI request on viridor taking 4 months (so far)

 

[Col_Buendia]

According to FoE Cardiff website:

Join the peaceful demonstration before the planning committee meeting. Meet at 1.30 pm on Wednesday 11 March at the front entrance of City Hall in Cathays Park.

Bring placards, gas-masks, family and friends!

http://www.foecardiff.co.uk/content/stop-cardiff-incinerator-call-action

Apparently they also had a "demo" at Nye Bevin on Fri.

Jesus, with opposition organisation like this, where they can't even manage an email to their own supporters, Paul and Viridor must be pissing their pants laughing

 

[Col_Buendia]

Update: I've now had an email and a phone call from FoE Cymru apologising for not having added my email to the list they put together after the meeting. Demo this afternoon at 1:30 outside city hall before the planning committee meeting.