Capital Punishment.

[tbaldwin]

Because the state expects the population-at-large to obey certain basic social precepts. It's difficult to convince the "law-abiding majority" to behave properly if the state operates on the basis of "do as I say, not as I do".

Obey..........
Properly........

Funny how this arguement brings out all the old authoritarian tendencies.

 

[In Bloom]

How about the death penalty for the owner of the Sun?

I'm "pro", btw.

As long as it can be conclusively proved that he is really the owner of the Sun. We wouldn't want any tragic miscarriages of justice, after all.

 

[In Bloom]

the 5 prostitutes murdered, i reckon if there was a death penalty 4 of them would still be with us.

That doesn't even make sense. If they'd caught the guy after the first murder, there wouldn't have been any more, whether the death penalty was in place or not.

DNA evidence is not as reliable as a lot of people seem to think. It can only establish that the person was present at the scene recently, not exactly when they were there or what they did.

 

[chainsaw cat]

Heil Hitler Andy.

Seriously though, you think that 99% of Sun readers should be disenfranchised? That really is reactionary nonsense.

But at least as usual your honest about it. Its a very fascistic view that seems very popular amongst the Liberal supremacists on urban.

Any idea of the majority in control or real socialism if you like is firmly rejected in favour of rule by a benevolent minority...

Real socialism needs educated people. Sun readers are thick as shit or they wouldn't read the Sun.

Paranoid Conspiracy Alert:

Right wing press designed to keep things right wing.

 

[In Bloom]

Sun readers are thick as shit or they wouldn't read the Sun.

Oh do fuck off

 

[chainsaw cat]

Hey, it was a generalisation, not aimed at you specifically.

But by coincidence, I was about to fuck off anyway.

 

[cliche guevara]

That said, I totally understand a relative wanting to do damage or death to the person responsible, but that is quite a different matter from the state doing it.

That sentence hits the nail on the head for me. I am completely against capital punishment, and the one argument that seems to keep bobbing to the surface from the oposition whenever I have this discussion is - "But what if it was someone in your immediate family that was raped and murdered?" The obvious answer is that I'd want revenge, I'd feel better if they were dead, and better still if it was by my hands. But this does not, under any circumstances, mean that it's okay for this to happen, and it's certainly not okay for this view to be reinforced by the state. Some people fail to differentiate between an individuals gut reaction, and the reaction of our society and state.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Obey..........
Properly........

Funny how this arguement brings out all the old authoritarian tendencies.

Government is a compromise. It depends on convincing the populace to make a compact to not carry out certain actions, in turn for which the government uses the collective power bestowed on it to protect the populace through organised and concentrated political and civil power.
In theory.

Amazing how you, rather than engaging with the substantive part of the post, i.e. why govts do what they do, you take two words out of context and construct from that a little fantasy about my supposedly having "authoritarian tendencies".
What a schlemiel you are, balders.

 

[ViolentPanda]

As long as it can be conclusively proved that he is really the owner of the Sun. We wouldn't want any tragic miscarriages of justice, after all.

His ego is so large that if you asked him, with a gun in your hand, "are you the owner of the Sun? If so I'm here to administer some revolutionary justice", the fucker would still say "of course I am, ya pom bastard!".

I suspect we can rely on him to condemn himself out of his own mouth.

 

[chainsaw cat]

OK I un-fucked off, In Bloom, all Sun readers (by my definition) are as thick as shit 'n' treacle, you defend them at your peril you patronising middle class git.

 

[Dhimmi]

Funny how this arguement brings out all the old authoritarian tendencies.

Right you up against the wall!

 

[Orang Utan]

The only pro-capital punishment position that makes any sense is that which sees it as vengeance.

I do not believe that the state's prerogative for violence should ever be used for vengeance.

Spot on. Deterrence is a red herring. We're only looking at vengeance and whether we, as a decent society, can live with such a primitive concept.

 

[Orang Utan]

Why not?

Vengeance is merely a reaction, not a solution

 

[danny la rouge]

OK I un-fucked off, In Bloom, all Sun readers (by my definition) are as thick as shit 'n' treacle, you defend them at your peril you patronising middle class git.

I read the Sun. It's interesting that you've inverted the 'patronising middle class git' thing. Do you suppose that calling me 'thick as shit 'n' treacle' will endear you, or your views, to me?

I don't want to derail this thread; we've had the 'newspaper readers are the personification of whatever paper they read' debate before, and those who hold your view tend to be pretty unsophisticated of mind.

 

[Combustible]

1 Your probably right but with DNA etc this should be less of an arguement these days. But the 5 prostitutes murdered, i reckon if there was a death penalty 4 of them would still be with us. So i would say its the lesser of 2 evils.

But there's not always DNA. So either you would set up 2 standards of proof, one of which leads to the death penalty and the other life imprisonment or you are likely to execute innocent people.

 

[jiggajagga]

A major reason why death penalty is shite!

Picture this situation:-

The death penalty exists in the UK. I am a terrorist. I have just bombed a pub, killing many. I run off and enter a school full of children.

I hold the children hostage. I KNOW I am to die if caught already so I say I will execute a child every 10 mins until a copter takes me to safety.
I will have no problem in executing children will I if I am to die anyway?
If, however, there is a way out with some chance of freedom in the future no matter how small I may, just may, think twice.

Arguement over.

 

[In Bloom]

OK I un-fucked off, In Bloom, all Sun readers (by my definition) are as thick as shit 'n' treacle, you defend them at your peril you patronising middle class git.

Your definition is shit then, you thick fuck. I like how you go straight for the class thing by the way. Not that that was on your mind when you were attacking Sun readers or anything

IME, Sun readers are no thicker, on average, than readers of any other paper, and at least they have more skepticism about what they read in the papers than (say) Guardian readers, who'll believe any old shit.

 

[tbaldwin]

A major reason why death penalty is shite!

Picture this situation:-

The death penalty exists in the UK. I am a terrorist. I have just bombed a pub, killing many. I run off and enter a school full of children.

I hold the children hostage. I KNOW I am to die if caught already so I say I will execute a child every 10 mins until a copter takes me to safety.
I will have no problem in executing children will I if I am to die anyway?
If, however, there is a way out with some chance of freedom in the future no matter how small I may, just may, think twice.

Arguement over.

Wot a shite arguement. You could also use it against life imprisonment.

 

[chainsaw cat]

I read the Sun. It's interesting that you've inverted the 'patronising middle class git' thing. Do you suppose that calling me 'thick as shit 'n' treacle' will endear you, or your views, to me?

I don't want to derail this thread; we've had the 'newspaper readers are the personification of whatever paper they read' debate before, and those who hold your view tend to be pretty unsophisticated of mind.

You haven't heard my definition of a Sun reader.

 

[danny la rouge]

You haven't heard my definition of a Sun reader.

Go on, then.

 

[tbaldwin]

Spot on. Deterrence is a red herring. We're only looking at vengeance and whether we, as a decent society, can live with such a primitive concept.

That really is bonkers.

 

[danny la rouge]

That really is bonkers.

Why?

 

[tbaldwin]

Why?

Cos Deterence Works. Not always but to describe it as a red herring is just nonsense.
Cant help thinking a lot of people who post stuff like that are people who have never had a fight in their lives.
It is such a hopelessly theoretical position.

 

[In Bloom]

You haven't heard my definition of a Sun reader.

If it's anything other than "somebody who reads the Sun", you're even thicker than you first appear.

 

[8ball]

Groundhog Thread!!!

 

[danny la rouge]

Cos Deterence Works.

Not with capital punishment. In fact, it could be argued that the figures would suggest it has the effect of encouraging murder. I've posted them up here many times. A United Nations survey of research findings, conducted in 1988 and updated in 1996, found no evidence of the death penalty being a more effective deterrent.

Example:

- The murder rate in the US is 6 times that of Britain and 5 times that of Australia.

- Texas has the death penalty, but twice the murder rate of Wisconsin, a state that doesn't.

But OU's point was that deterrence or otherwise isn't the issue, the issue is "whether we, as a decent society, can live with such a primitive concept". It's a fair question.

 

[tbaldwin]

Not with capital punishment. In fact, it could be argued that the figures would suggest it has the effect of encouraging murder. I've posted them up here many times. A United Nations survey of research findings, conducted in 1988 and updated in 1996, found no evidence of the death penalty being a more effective deterrent.

Example:

- The murder rate in the US is 6 times that of Britain and 5 times that of Australia.

- Texas has the death penalty, but twice the murder rate of Wisconsin, a state that doesn't.

But OU's point was that deterrence or otherwise isn't the issue, the issue is "whether we, as a decent society, can live with such a primitive concept". It's a fair question.

The use of statistics eh....Drawing a parrallel between 2 states in the US might be a briiliant idea. If people assume that all the states in the US are broadly the same.
And comparing a country with different gun laws and greater inequality is also a preety shallow arguement against the death penalty.

Compare the murder rates in the UK before and after the death sentence was abolished. Again its not proof of anything much really is it?????????
Or the rate of murders in Riyadh compared to London?????

 

[8ball]

Yeah, you can prove anything with facts, can't you.

 

[danny la rouge]

The use of statistics eh....

I think you'll find the salient point was "A United Nations survey found no evidence of the death penalty being an effective deterrent".

 

[8ball]

I think you'll find the salient point was "A United Nations survey found no evidence of the death penalty being an effective deterrent".

P'ah!