Cannabis Festival is POSTPONED

[free spirit]

Thanks for that freespirit, I was starting to worry that people would come back and say we were getting a bargain or something!

Nah you're getting ripped mate from what i can see - i'll have a look at yer budget in a sec.

Could I ask what the local authority is where you are holding the event?

The clue's in the first bit of Newcastle Community Green Festival

It would help if we could use it as an example and ask Lambeth why they don't behave like that (by PM if you'd prefer).

Um, yeah, i don't see why not, though i'm i little bit squeemish about NCC suddenly deciding to adopt lambeths policies...

I'll have a look at your budgets etc. and see if i can get you some kind ofa comparison - that could potentially beef up your support within the council, and make your enemies arguements look a bit silly. not sure if it'll work, but might be worth a shot.

 

[free spirit]

fuck me, either you're getting ripped off on toilets or the council's really going to town on you, how many people do you get at the fest at any one time?

are your policing costs incorporated into the security costs, or do they not charge you? our police costs are £450-500, at reduced rate.

our licensing fee is £450ish - yours is £1316.

we don't get charged for the use of the park - you get charged a hell of a lot from the looks of it.

We don't get asked for a deposit, our track record of cleaning up after ourselves means this is unnecessary, if you've got a similar track record i reckon you really have grounds to challenge the council on the deposit issue. If you've not cleaned up properly and it's cost them money to clean up after you then they may have a point. (we spend 2 days with a load of volunteers cleaning up every last feckin cigarette but, then sorting it all for recycling).

other than that it's kind of hard to make much comparison. a few questions

- are you constituted not for profit? coz i notice you don't seem to get any funding from anywhere, have you looked at this option? (too late for this year obviously).

- how the fuck do you make that much from stalls?

 

[TeeJay]

Shane or one of the other event managers will be able to those questions better than me, although I'll give them a shot, with the caveat that I have not been directly involved - I'm just helping out with getting the information out and raising money and support.

As I understand it the person/company who was meant to provide the toilets last year screwed up on the day (even though they had been paid) so this year Lambeth have demanded they are put in place a day (or two?) in advance and that there is extra capacity 'just in case'.

Lambeth are not actually providing them - they are being hired. Over the last six years I don't think the festival has ever lost any of its deposit, and has always done a very good clean-up. The cost-analysis behind the figures has been requested but nothing has appeared. Regarding all the other questions, I'd have to defer to the organisers here as I don't know these details.

 

[free spirit]

if all that's left to raise is the deposit, and you've always had your deposit returned then IMO they have no justification in refusing you permission as the level of deposit should be influenced by track record etc. Maybe mass email to all councillors is called for pointing out that the festival is being jepardised by this one totally unreasonable demand, your track record and community support, the work you put in etc. follow this up with a call to each of the councillors on the committee - be assertive but reasonable, ask them to justify their position and if they can't ask them if they will change their position (if there are a few of you then you can hit then all at the same time, not letting them get their stories straight).

If at this stage they've not changed their position it's time to use the press, releasing any conflicting statements they made as justification to the press, or anything else daft they've said and done. Keep in touch with councillors or officials who're supportive, they can help to persuade collegues, and try to identify and issolate the councillors who're fucking you over. If all else fails, at least you know who scuppered you and can use any spare donation money to campaign against them in the elections - go down fighting, but not too skint if possible

point out to them that you've received several thousand pounds in donations to a fighting fund (they've no way of knowing how much this is),

 

[TeeJay]

Hehehe. I actually email every single councillor before easter. The original thread in the Brixton forum (ie way before this one in the 'general' forum) explains what happened next: http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=71602

*censors rant about councillors, council officers, local media and various other 'participants'*

*goes off to chill out and enjoy the latest good news while smoking my pipe*

Got to stay positive and focussed no matter what the nightmare people do.

 

[Streathamite]

bumped cos this is important...

 

[William of Walworth]

Well done Shane, TeeJay and organisers

Also, some fascinating stuff from free spirit, I hope he doesn't mind but I'm going to copy part of it over to the relevant JayDay thread on the Brixton forum too.

And remember people, JayDay is now on, needs your support, and is in only ten days time!

Bump!

 

[tobyjug]

. I think our current experience of an event in the same country on the same date shows tobyjug's explanation of the increased fees to be utter bollocks. The licensing laws are changing, but this does not in any way justify these rediculous increased charges.

There is no need to be insulting, the same country is not the same thing as the same county. How local councils are charging for events this year varies wildly from area to area, and on the past problematic or otherwise nature of the event.
Piss any officials off with a bad attitude , (Council, police, fire, ambulance, environmental health, ect. ) and not take the duty of care of attendees seriously and you will have problems.
Here in the West Country thus far this year events are being refused licences left right and centre and very long term events are having to find their own marshalling and security as the police now want a full rate for each officer deployed. (Last cost I saw £298 per constable per 24 hours).
Whilst I may be marshalling several events this year, I am not taking part in any organising as no-one involved with the events I normally help with organising took the new licencing regime seriously when I told them last year that this year would be problematic with licencing.

 

[free spirit]

There is no need to be insulting

yeah, sorry slightly on edge at the moment

Welcome to the real world of getting a licence for an event, the charges seem no more than normal compared with events I have been involved with.
Any thought of the charges being prohibitive must be because people have no experience of getting events licenced.

however i think you're wrong to essentially try to blame the organisers for being naive in their budgeting when the problems result directly from dramatically increased charges from the council for use of the park damages deposit. The organisers of this festival have my full sympathy because it appears these increased charges (which are discretional) are politically motivated and have nothing to do with their track record.

These charges seem excessive to me, and look like a deliberate attempt to scupper the event by someone within the council.

I think you're right in many respects about the impact of new licensing laws etc. on events, and the need to keep the authorities on side. We now have to produce full on 50+ page event manuals, risk assessments etc. when only 2 years ago our documentation ran to about 8 pages...

 

[tobyjug]

I think you're right in many respects about the impact of new licensing laws etc. on events, and the need to keep the authorities on side. We now have to produce full on 50+ page event manuals, risk assessments etc. when only 2 years ago our documentation ran to about 8 pages...

It is getting progressively worse. I would advise anyone organising an event to make sure PERSONALLY that all licencing is obtained and valid.
I had to stick my neck out last year because an event venue turned out not to have an entertainments licence at the very last moment.(Despite assurances from the "licencee", the venue had not had an entertainment licence for the last 10 years) I went to the police, and council personally and because I had covered all the health and safety, fire and ambulance, under 16s camping, marshalling, security, and traffic control aspects of the event they were prepared to turn a blind eye ONCE to the lack of licencing. I am not going to stick my neck out like that again.
A local event last week had to be moved to another venue for the same reason, no licence had been obtained.

 

[TeeJay]

Piss any officials off with a bad attitude , (Council, police, fire, ambulance, environmental health, ect. ) and not take the duty of care of attendees seriously and you will have problems.

tobyjug, while what you are saying may be valid and apply to other events, I really don't like the way you seem to be implying that al these factors are relevant to the this festival. The organisers have a *very* good relationship with police, fire, ambulance, environmental health etc and with the council officers. In fact it seems that the people who seem determined to get us are a combination of nasty little busy-body types and people wanting to make political capital out of things and show everyone how macho they are by shutting down this event. There are people who have gone on record as being extremely against the whole "Brixton experiment" thing, and who see the cannabis festival as part and parcel of this. There is also the factor that Lambeth council can we wildly erratic at the best of times and there is always some kind of scheming going on behind the scenes. It is true however that the frontline staff are generally all really good people, who do as much as they are empowered to do to help out the festival, despite the kind of orders they are getting handed down to them.

 

[tobyjug]

tobyjug, while what you are saying may be valid and apply to other events, I really don't like the way you seem to be implying that al these factors are relevant to the this festival. .

I am implying nothing about any specific event, I am merely commenting in general on getting licencing for events.
Specifically in relation to Cannabis festival how do you think the police will react to blatant aggressive possession of cannabis at the event. (Specifically smoking cannabis near a police officer, near children, or in a public place now being an arrestable offence).
(This point has been a matter of discussion in relation to event licencing in the run up to several events I know of.
Event organisors/landowners/licencees have a legal duty to take steps to police such matters.)

 

[William of Walworth]

I am implying nothing about any specific event, I am merely commenting in general on getting licencing for events.
Specifically in relation to Cannabis festival how do you think the police will react to blatant aggressive possession of cannabis at the event. (Specifically smoking cannabis near a police officer, near children, or in a public place now being an arrestable offence).
(This point has been a matter of discussion in relation to event licencing in the run up to several events I know of.
Event organisors/landowners/licencees have a legal duty to take steps to police such matters.)

Do you know the local conditions, local low key approach to this event, that have up til now applied at this specific event? Don't forget that the Police did not object to it at the licence hearing, and TeeJay has said the organisers' relationship with the coppers has been good. Others can fill you in more than I could on the detail, I'm sure. But you appear not to be very interested in anything that might contradict your obvious hostility to and assumptions about this event.

Stop applying your generalities (some of which are valid as free spirit has acknowledged) to specifics in Brixton which might just be different from your experience..

Your reference to "blatant aggressive possession of cannabis" is a nonsense by the way ...

 

[TeeJay]

...how do you think the police will react to blatant aggressive possession of cannabis at the event...

Leaving aside how on earth possession of cannabis can be "aggressive", I should think that the Lambeth police will adapt exactly the same approach as in previous years. The event organisers have a very good relationship with Lambeth police, and you might be aware that this force was the one which pioneered the so-called "Brixton experiment" under Commander Brian Paddick. The police have had plenty of time to voice concerns about this event and if they wanted to they could have recommended that the council refuse a license. In fact they seem to approve of the event more than some of the councillors, or at least they are not as hysterical or politically-motivated or detached from reality as some of the people who use Lambeth to launch their political careers or as an excuse for some political or media grandstanding.

I have heard it said that looking at the larger picture, the Metropolitan Police were happier for the annual Marijuana March to be made into a "march plus festival" and for it to be moved from a demo in Trafalgar Square/central London down to a park in South London - even that they themselves suggested it! (Don't know if this is true)

Maybe if you feel like it you could email Chief Superintendent Richard Quinn and ask him what the policy of his officers wil be on the day, although I suspect that The Daily Mail etc will be doing this anyway shortly before the event and he will tell them the standard about "people openly smoking or dealing in cannabis will not be tolerated" etc. 'Off the record' (ie not providing quotes for rabid right-wing journalists) there has always been a high degree of cooperation between the police and the on-site security and stewards and an understanding that the police have no plans for turning up in vast numbers and using snatch squads and riot police to arrest thousands of spliff-smoking festival-goers - that they will be primarily interested in stuff like robberies, fights, public safety and so on and they probably have some kind of 'policy' on any dealing they see as well - all common sense stuff in fact (fancy that!).

If you are interested here is the Lambeth Police website: http://www.met.police.uk/lambeth/index.html and they have two pages specifically about drugs:
Community Drug Project - CDP: http://www.met.police.uk/lambeth/community/communitydrugproject.htm
CDP - Drugs information links: http://www.met.police.uk/lambeth/community/drugsinformationlinks.htm

 

[William of Walworth]

Stop applying your generalities (some of which are valid as free spirit has acknowledged) to specifics in Brixton which might just be different from your experience..

Apologies to tobyjug if the above seems over-hostile to him. But he really does seem to have an attitude problem about this whole business. He steams into this thread, offering the benefit of his wisdom and experience about event organisation and licensing. That would be fine, and free spirit has done much the same, very usefully, but without the aggressive hostility towards this festival that tobyjug appears to have.

Why the aggression tobyjug? Some of your experience about events might indeed be very useful -- were it not for an understandable suspicion that you're changing your story as you go along. Earlier in this thread you claimed to know about an event in Cambridgeshire, more recently you claim to have been involved in event organisation in the West Country.

Do enlighten us as to where you're coming from on this, both geographically and attitude wise! What on earth is your problem with the JayDay organisers?

It might also be worth asking yourself why you have earned (judicious use of word there) so much hostility thrown back at you from various others on these boards. You do yourself no favours with your air of know-it-all superiority, as if no-one else than you has any experience or knowledge worth contributing. It's called arrogance and arrogance is never popular.

<Waits for cliched tj assertion that he doesn't care how unpopular he is, he's just telling "the truth" ... >

 

[TeeJay]

Waits for cliched tj assertion...

Ok I just read that again more carefully

 

[kyser_soze]

"blatant aggressive possession of cannabis"

'OI! You married to that spliff or what?' is the kind of dialogue I think constitutes aggressive possession of cannabis

 

[TeeJay]

Slightly off topic. but I have just got a "warning" from the 'Guardian Talk' forum for posting this:

Brixton Cannabis Festival (May 8th) being stopped by the Lib Dems. Please
help us! Started by TeeJay at 11:37pm Apr 22, 2004 BST

The Cannabis Festival is fighting for survival this weekend as Lambeth
LibDems/Con Council demand £12,000 by Friday for the use of the park. This
is a massive increase from from 52p per head last year up to £1.40p they
are refusing to give it the not-for-profit rate and they are asking for a
85% deposit rather than the standard 15% despite it being entirely a free
event, not-for-profit and getting the thumbs up from police. local groups
and licensing. Info: http://www.thecannabisfestival.co.uk/

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I am mystified as to which one of their guidelines I broke? I am kind of assuming that they mean the one about something being "potentially libellous" - but ffs that could be applied to almost anything! I have had a look on the forum for the thread (it was originally in their UK politics forum) but it seems to have been deleted.

I was starting to go off the Guardian as it was with the excessive 'opinionating', often sloppy journalism and the vast amounts of articles on expensive sports cars, where to put your 'investments', interior decorating and Nigella Lawson - while simultaneously try to strike a 'radical' pose - but I think that unless they come back with some decent explanation this has put the final nail in their coffin regarding reading their newspaper from my point of view. (I suppose that means I'll have to start buying the Independent for the first time since 1990? )

 

[William of Walworth]

The Independent? Boring as fuck, and at times just as interested in getting consumerist readers excited about products as is the Guardian ...

Best just to read the Guardian selectively -- I've got huge criticisms of it, not least their inability to separate opinion from reporting (I agree with you there, even at times when they're being biased in favour of something I agree with!).

But read alongside other sources, online or whatever, you can pick up some pretty useful/interesting stuff from the old G still ...

Far too much consumerist bollocks in there though agreed ...

Oops off topic!!

Back on topic : bet ya a pint tobyjug won't come back into this thread now!!!

 

[JTG]

'OI! You married to that spliff or what?' is the kind of dialogue I think constitutes aggressive possession of cannabis

More accurately, that is aggressive non possession of cannabis you're describing there!

 

[William of Walworth]

Time to start talking about an Urban JayDay Meetup on Saturday May 8th** I feel !!

**Note handy helpful date reference in promotion of said event!!

 

[tobyjug]

I don't have any agression I am merely asking a question given the ACPO guidelines on agressive possession and the past TV coverage of the event.
(I don't read any national newspapers so I have no idea of their opinions).
I have only been pointing out that the event seems to me to be having no more hassle than other events are having in other parts of Britain this year.
The event I went to in Cambridgeshire was probably free of police visits because I have since found out there was a massive drugs busting operation in Wisbech over the same weekend.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I don't have any agression I am merely asking a question given the ACPO guidelines on agressive possession and the past TV coverage of the event.

So Tobyjug, could you explain to us how you can agressively possess a bag of a plant material that has been cultivated for centuries for food cloth medicine and recreation? Apart from hitting someone over the head with it that is.

 

[Streathamite]

I am implying nothing about any specific event, I am merely commenting in general on getting licencing for events.
Specifically in relation to Cannabis festival how do you think the police will react to blatant aggressive possession of cannabis at the event. (Specifically smoking cannabis near a police officer, near children, or in a public place now being an arrestable offence).
(This point has been a matter of discussion in relation to event licencing in the run up to several events I know of.
Event organisors/landowners/licencees have a legal duty to take steps to police such matters.)

but there has been no problems-in terms of either old rates, sticking to Terms & Conditions or public order - for this event in any of the previous 4 showings. Now however, a new administration in Lambeth has suddenly decided to make a problem. Are you saying that Lambeth cops & Lambeth council got it wrong every year until now?

 

[Flook]

What's the point in having a Cannabis Festival? Every day is a bleeding Cannabis Festival in S***h London from what I hear.

 

[Streathamite]

thank you for that typically helpful and charming vcontribution, Flook.
and by 'from what I hear' can one conclude you're going on rumour alone, without any direct firsthand knowledge? That you are, in fact, talking out of your hole?

 

[Flook]

You write very nicely when you slag me off, Jezza. Thanks.

Better than the Dick van Dyke 'cockney' routine you sometimes go for.

 

[kea]

<has mental image of jezza as dick van dyke>
<chokes on lunch>
<needs beer>

thanks for that flook you've made my day!
oh and glad to hear the festie is going ahead, agree with william that a meet-up would be great!

 

[Flook]

You are welcome kea. I bet he needs a bath though.

 

[kropotkin]

Shit, you are still here. I guess I lost my bet then.

Oh well.

See those of you who aren't cunts next week.