Can nu labour pretend anymore to be a party of the left

[CyberRose]

Are they also going to find work for the 'won't work-can't pay maintenance' absent fathers then, thus enabling these ne'er do well's to do well by their offspring? Why this complete focus on only the mothers?

Who's going to look after the kids for 6 weeks of the summer holidays? Not every town has 6 weeks childcare provision. In the case of a friend - the jobcentre asked her if her 12 yr old would mind being left alone for 3 hours a day, unattended! The only childcare available for 12+ was 1 hour on the bus away, and that meant 4 hours bus travel for her - travel costs of £15 per day, childcare costs of £30 (minimum) for the 5 hours the child would need to be cared for, and for three hours work she'd get approx £21 if she was lucky enough to have a job that paid £7 an hour, but most jobs of that nature were paying around £5.60-£6.00, presuming she can find a job that would fit in with her 2 hour bus journey before she even got to work. So the deficit of £26-28 per day would presumably be met by the Govt? Possibly not all of it. It's actually cheaper to allow a mother to stay at home, isn't it, and pay them them the £56 per week they currently receive from Income Support to look after their own child, isn't it?

When the Jobcentre ask a mother to leave a 12 year old on their own for 3 hours a day because there's no locally available childcare is that not reckless?

They should do what my mum did - become a teacher!

 

[glenquagmire]

What do they mean by that socialism though?!! That's what i'm asking.

How many of the members do youy think count themselves as socialists?

How do they/you intend to 'reclaim' the labour party and impose a socialist program (and what does that propgram entail?). Don;'t these attempts in the current conditions, with the constituional chnages thta have been put in place since 1994 doom them/you to failure and to being of no lasting significance whatsoever to anyone except their couple of hundred members.

Well, socialism has as many definitions as it does adherents. I'm not going to sit here and type out my opinions on every single subject I can think of.

Let's take John McDonnell's recent manifesto as an example. I'd say there are several thousand members who would support that programme, including me. The way to bring it about is long and hard but should start with de-selecting rightwing MPs and councillors.

More importantly, what alternative for socialism do you propose? Please bear in mind before answering that (a) anything that doesn't involve parliamentary democracy makes you a loon, and (b) any suggestion involving a socialist party outside Labour will see you laughed through the streets by myself and everyone else in the country.

 

[CyberRose]

Who mentioned 'true socialists' or 'winning power'?

I thought when you said:

Your formulation should surely read labour (or tory) is the the only hope for non-socialists to win any power via parliamant in this country

You had a way in mind where socialists could win power in this country...?

 

[butchersapron]

Well, socialism has as many definitions as it does adherents. I'm not going to sit here and type out my opinions on every single subject I can think of.

Let's take John McDonnell's recent manifesto as an example. I'd say there are several thousand members who would support that programme, including me. The way to bring it about is long and hard but should start with de-selecting rightwing MPs and councillors.

More importantly, what alternative for socialism do you propose? Please bear in mind before answering that (a) anything that doesn't involve parliamentary democracy makes you a loon, and (b) any suggestion involving a socialist party outside Labour will see you laughed through the streets by myself and everyone else in the country.

And i'm asking you to give me a broad brush stroke picture of what you think labour party socialists believe in. Not a full manifesto. Surely you can do that if you're going to reclaim the party? I thought it'd be a prerequisite.

Yes, take Mcd's campaign - didn't it demonstrate that your pipe dream is dead, as dead as any extra-parlimentary party based campaign to 'take powe'. The game is up. And the streets would ring with laughter if anyone cared - they don't as they too know that the game is up and has been for some time. As well as they know that party that you're wasting your time on/in is meanwhile implementing a series of vicious cuts, dismantling the welfare state and generally helping capital restructure all the better to attack the working class. I live in utopia though. Not you. That's for sure. reclaim labour for socialism.

Don't see why i have to propose a fully worked our program for taking power for something i don't believe in.

 

[butchersapron]

I thought when you said:You had a way in mind where socialists could win power in this country...?

Well, you were wrong...

 

[CyberRose]

Well, you were wrong...

Erm, ok, I'm a little confused. You're complaining about the Labour Party not being socialist enough, but you can't see anyway of 'actual' socialists to win power in this country?

So if there is no alternative, then aren't you complaining about nothing?

 

[butchersapron]

Erm, ok, I'm a little confused. You're complaining about the Labour Party not being socialist enough, but you can't see anyway of 'actual' socialists to win power in this country?

So if there is no alternative, then aren't you complaining about nothing?

I'm complaining of nothing young man, beyond people deluding themselves that a) they're in a socialist party or_ b) that they can relcaim said party for some form of unspecified 'socialism'.

 

[glenquagmire]

And i'm asking you to give me a broad brush stroke picture of what you think labour party socialists believe in. Not a full manifesto. Surely you can do that if you're going to reclaim the party? I thought it'd be a prerequisite.

I did that by referring you to an existing publication

Yes, take Mcd's campaign - didn't it demonstrate that your pipe dream is dead, as dead as any extra-parlimentary party based campaign to 'take powe'. The game is up. And the streets would ring with laughter if anyone cared - they don't as they too know that the game is up and has been for some time. As well as they know that party that you're wasting your time on/in is meanwhile implementing a series of vicious cuts, dismantling the welfare state and generally helping capital restructure all the better to attack the working class. I live in utopia though. Not you. That's for sure. reclaim labour for socialism.

I've heard the same crap from all the ex-Millies and their hilarious CNWP since then. No, just because one campaign embarked upon by a group fails it doesn't automatically follow that that group is finished.

The rest is so much predictable waffle - do you really think I don't know all that? And that I and my comrades on the left haven't made a conscious decision that the most viable way to stop it is from within the party?

Don't see why i have to propose a fully worked our program for taking power for something i don't believe in.

Not really sure what this means. If you're not a socialist why are you bothering with this thread? If you are, why should I have a worked out programme yet you don't? TBH I'm not sure what the point of debating with someone who has NO alternative suggestions is.

 

[CyberRose]

I'm complaining of nothing young man, beyond people deluding themselves that a) they're in a socialist party or_ b) that they can relcaim said party for some form of unspecified 'socialism'.

So you do think a socialist party, a true socialist party, could win power in the UK?

ETA: Are you even a socialist?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

if Labourscum win the next election the proper round-up for fingerprinting, eye-scanning and interogation begins.

And there will still be craven shits on U75 and every other thinkable message board defending them.

 

[butchersapron]

I did that by referring you to an existing publication

I've heard the same crap from all the ex-Millies and their hilarious CNWP since then. No, just because one campaign embarked upon by a group fails it doesn't automatically follow that that group is finished.

The rest is so much predictable waffle - do you really think I don't know all that? And that I and my comrades on the left haven't made a conscious decision that the most viable way to stop it is from within the party?

Not really sure what this means. If you're not a socialist why are you bothering with this thread? If you are, why should I have a worked out programme yet you don't? TBH I'm not sure what the point of debating with someone who has NO alternative suggestions is.

Is that existing publication what you and the other socialist members identify as socialism? That's the question. If not, what is?

None of that applies to me i'm not supportive or a member of those groups. You're still left with the gap of how and why a campaign to reclaim the labour party (to what btw?) can be won? It's no use frothing at trot groups i have nothing to do with.

You may have made that conscious decison - it's deluded and self-deluding though.

What i means is that asking me to outline a path to power for socialism when i'm not a socialist is daft.

Why am i bothering with this thread? Are you joking? Because the govt, the one run by your party is attacking the w/c of this country left right and centre in line with their own capitalist impulses, directly effecting me and mine. Sorry, but if you only want to talk to labour socialists members try elsewhere. An ostrich is accusing me of having my head in the sand - great stuff

 

[glenquagmire]

Is that existing publication what you and the other socialist members identify as socialism? That's the question. If not, what is?

None of that applies to me i'm not supportive or a member of those groups. You're still left with the gap of how and why a campaign to reclaim the labour party (to what btw?) can be won? It's no use frothing at trot groups i have nothing to do with.

You may have made that conscious decison - it's deluded and self-deluding though.

What i means is that asking me to outline a path to power for socialism when i'm not a socialist is daft.

Why am i bothering with this thread? Are you joking? Because the govt, the one run by your party is attacking the w/c of this country left right and centre in line with their own capitalist impulses, directly effecting me and mine. Sorry, but if you only want to talk to labour socialists members try elsewhere. An ostrich is accusing me of having my head in the sand - great stuff

I can't speak for many other people but that publication would certainly do me.

I've already given you an example of how the left of the party can begin to fight back, which you seem to have ignored.

I don't only "talk to labour socialists members" - in fact the vast majority of my friends, relatives and acquaintances aren't members of any party. I didn't accuse you of having your head in the sand either. But unless you can come up with even ONE suggestion for an alternative, then you're just making yourself look a bit ridiculous. And you deserve whatever you suffer from this bloody awful government.

 

[butchersapron]

I can't speak for many other people but that publication would certainly do me.

I've already given you an example of how the left of the party can begin to fight back, which you seem to have ignored.

I don't only "talk to labour socialists members" - in fact the vast majority of my friends, relatives and acquaintances aren't members of any party. I didn't accuse you of having your head in the sand either. But unless you can come up with even ONE suggestion for an alternative, then you're just making yourself look a bit ridiculous. And you deserve whatever you suffer from this bloody awful government.

People who don't offer an alternative that you agree with "deserve whatever you suffer from this bloody awful government" - a govt of your party. Laid bare, there it is. I'll only stop beating and robbing you if you offer me an alternative.. This is socialism today. TINA.

Was your practical suggestion as to how to reclaim the party the painfully discredited deselection process that can be overuled from the centre? Brilliant. You're off to a great start. Priceless.

 

[glenquagmire]

Don't generalise from yourself to the whole population.

It's a government made up of members of my party, who I disagree with. Correct. Would it make me feel all nice and smug inside if I left the party? Would it achieve anything? Would I achieve as much in terms of improving people's lives as you do? Maybe you could give me some tips?

There's my suggestion batted away by you. Now it's your turn. What's that? You haven't got any ideas whatsoever? I must say, I am surprised.

 

[butchersapron]

Don't generalise from yourself to the whole population.

It's a government made up of members of my party, who I disagree with. Correct. Would it make me feel all nice and smug inside if I left the party? Would it achieve anything? Would I achieve as much as you do?

There's my suggestion batted away by you. Now it's your turn. What's that? You haven't got any ideas whatsoever? I must say, I am surprised.

Oh, only i "deserve whatever you suffer from this bloody awful government" - it does rather sum up the official postion of the party of which you're a member though. Valiantly struggling to change it from within via methods that the NEC need only lift a finger to over rule. Don't you think that presnts a rather large gap in your approach as it's all you actually had? What's the plan now?

Hang on, is the game you offer a shit idea (deselection) then i do too?

 

[Lock&Light]

If they are, then only about 9mm to the left.

I disagree, but even if you were right, from a left-wing point of view, would you prefer a party 9 mm to the right?

 

[butchersapron]

How long have you been in the labour party glenquagmire?

 

[Lock&Light]

We're still waiting for the list mind to prove it..come on L&L

The Conservative Party is the party for the rich and the Labour Party is the party for the less rich. Even if neither of them is for the poor, I still know which one I prefer.

 

[CyberRose]

Oh, only i "deserve whatever you suffer from this bloody awful government" - it does rather sum up the official postion of the party of which you're a member though. Valiantly struggling to change it from within via methods that the NEC need only lift a finger to over rule. Don't you think that presnts a rather large gap in your approach as it's all you actually had? What's the plan now?

Hang on, is the game you offer a shit idea (deselection) then i do too?

Which party do you support (if any)? Or which party represents your views more closely?

I think he wants to know what your alternative is because if you don't have an alternative in mind, then as far as I'm concerned that is accepting the status quo (ie Labour's way of doing things)

If you don't agree with the way Labour do things (which you clearly don't), then what should Labour do differently, or which party would you like to see take power in the UK?

 

[butchersapron]

The Conservative Party is the party of the rich and the Labour Party is the party for the less rich. Even if neither of them is for the poor, I still know which one I prefer.

Nope, both are the parties of the rich and when in power both are the party of the super-rich. Labour have been more open about this since 1997.

 

[butchersapron]

Which party do you support (if any)? Or which party represents your views more closely?

I think he wants to know what your alternative is because if you don't have an alternative in mind, then as far as I'm concerned that is accepting the status quo (ie Labour's way of doing things)

If you don't agree with the way Labour do things (which you clearly don't), then what should Labour do differently, or which party would you like to see take power in the UK?

I'll only stop beating and robbing you if you offer me an alternative - how about you stop beating me? You can't? Why not?

 

[glenquagmire]

Oh, only i "deserve whatever you suffer from this bloody awful government" - it does rather sum up the official postion of the party of which you're a member though. Valiantly struggling to change it from within via methods that the NEC need only lift a finger to over rule. Don't you think that presnts a rather large gap in your approach as it's all you actually had? What's the plan now?

Hang on, is the game you offer a shit idea (deselection) then i do too?

The NEC can overrule but don't always. Even less likely in the selection of candidates (we've got some excellent left ones in my ward, by the way)

I've offered an idea which has a chance (maybe a small one) of succeeding. You've failed to suggest anything, which rather shows up the poverty of thought outside the LP on the left.

I joined last year. Why?

 

[Lock&Light]

Nope, both are the parties of the rich and when in power both are the party of the super-rich. Labour have been more open about this since 1997.

We must agree to disagree, torres.

 

[butchersapron]

The NEC can overrule but don't always. Even less likely in the selection of candidates (we've got some excellent left ones in my ward, by the way)

I've offered an idea which has a chance (maybe a small one) of succeeding. You've failed to suggest anything, which rather shows up the poverty of thought outside the LP on the left.

I joined last year. Why?

The NEC will always overrule when it looks like the centre might be challenged. It's part of the naivity of this aproach. It's been the same for ever. The constitution has been changged to make it impossible for any reclaimaition to take place - you need to study this before you waste your time. Your idea has a tiny chance sure, as tiny as any i can offer. So we're quits then.

I was in the labour party 1985-1990, i tried, we tried, you are wasting your time. Not because that single campiagn failed but because structural control of the party will not allow any serious challenge from the left. It's writtan into the foundations of the thing.

 

[glenquagmire]

Well we'll see. There's a left candidate looks to be in with an excellent chance of being selected in a safe seat next to mine this autumn. Maybe she'll be overruled, maybe not.

Thank you for telling me to study the constitution. I'm sure I had no idea until now.

Now, any alternative suggestions?

 

[butchersapron]

Well we'll see. There's a left candidate looks to be in with an excellent chance of being selected in a safe seat next to mine this autumn. Maybe she'll be overruled, maybe not.

Thank you for telling me to study the constitution. I'm sure I had no idea until now.

Now, any alternative suggestions?

Great a potential candiate in an election - that always works. Whilst you're studying the constiution you might want to brush up on what tends to happen to those fire-brand leftwingers when electd and when times are hard. Or the history of the labour party.

Sure, concentrate on community orgnisation, try and help independent working class self-orgnisation develop with a view to particpating in a process that bases itself on self-identified working class needs rather than a daft political game that'll waste ten years during which you'll be laughed at or explelled if you ever come to pose a thread. Do something useful to help w/c communities build up a sense of self-confidence, to lay the groundwork for a future challenge, a mopvement put of whoich better organs that the friginng labour party are likely to develop. Slim chance, but no slimmer than yours. An IWCA type model adopted to local condtions. Community unions and so on.

 

[glenquagmire]

Thanks again, I'd never have known anything about either the history or the constitution without your help.

So basically boycott the parliamentary process that controls most of our lives?

 

[butchersapron]

Thanks again, I'd never have known anything about either the history or the constitution without your help.

So basically boycott the parliamentary process that controls most of our lives?

Well, i'm sorry but you appear not to. Let's do it all again but try harder this time - in conditions that are considerably worse and that have develped to stop this kind of approach

I didn't say boycott anything - can you tell me what direct gains you're likley to win by your involvement in 'the parliamentary process' though?

 

[glenquagmire]

Let's see, there's 20-odd socialist MPs in parliament in the Labour Party voting for socialist policies. How many are there from other parties?

By refusing to get involved in any organised parliamentary party (perhaps I've misunderstood your previous post - perhaps you could explain if so) you are allowing those who do to dominate it.

 

[butchersapron]

I see the good that your 20 Mps (and socialist in what way?) are doing right now - attacks on single mothers, attack on the NHS, attacks on the iraqi w/c. attacks right left and centre, padding for the super-rich, inequality through the roof, social mobility dead. It''s set up so that these interests can dominate.

If you honestly believe that parliament is all that politics can be then i don;t know what else to say to you other than open your eyes.