Can Israel win in Gaza?

[Sasaferrato]

Isn't it funny how these situations bring out all the inadequates who get a stiffy repeating the lies and blood-curdling threats of the powerful.

If that is the best you can do, fuck off.

 

[agricola]

A tad disingenuous on your part. Are you suggesting that Hitler should have been allowed to continue as he pleased?

Peace is always preferable, but when your neighbour is killing your citizens, the government has to act.

Since 2001 there have been (iirc) 18 Israeli dead due to rockets, and more than 1000 Palestinian dead due to bombs, shells and other methods delivered by the IDF (as well as hundreds more dead in Lebanon).

Given that, one assumes you support the elected Palestinian government in attempting to redress the balance?

 

[Spion]

If that is the best you can do, fuck off.

Spot on tho, wasn't it, you big hard man you? *chortle*

 

[tangentlama]

No. I don't think that Israel can 'win' i.e. win the 'war on terror' because every time they kill a terrorist, extra-judicially or by dropping munitions on civilian areas, new retaliators are born.

See this young man's face?

These emotions - despair, shock, hate, loss - have given birth to retaliation and terrorism. The more family killed as 'collatoral damage' by the occupying force, the more likely you will strap a bomb and attempt suicidal and dangerous retaliations.

 

[winjer]

Elect a terrorist government which fires rockets at Israel, rockets that are aimed at civilian targets, then you may expect retaliation.

That doesn't answer my question, you say Hamas has a tactic of firing from within civilian areas, where are you suggesting they fire from?

 

[durruti02]

Israel's war aims in Gaza are to 'deal Hamas a blow' (thereby limiting its ceasefire demands) and to stop the rocket attacks. The invasion was a response to Hamas declaring its terms for a renewed ceasefire which comprised an end to the blockade and extension of the ceasefire to the West Bank.

Can Israel achieve these?

We're three days into the ground fighting now and we've got no evidence that the IDF has done anything other than engage the Gazan resistance at the periphery of urban areas.

Of course, we'll have to see how events unfold, but it seems to me that Israel will be lucky to achieve its aims. Why?

I think that 5,000 IDF infantry will not be able to engage and neutralise 20,000 Gazan resistance who have had time to develop defences in an urban area where Israel's mechanised superiority will be no great advantage. They may be able to kill a lot of them, but they won't get them all.

This will have two results:
1. Hamas will continue to exist.
2. Hamas will be able to continue to fire rockets.
3. The will to continue to do the above will be strengthened. Crucially, Israel cannot get rid of the fundamental injustices - past and current - that motivate Gazans to resist.
(4. A by product of Israel's relative 'success' is that the younger, less-controlled layers of Hamas etc may come to the fore)

The crux is that Hamas only needs to continue to exist and to be able to fire rockets to achieve its war aims.

Discuss.

both side as will claim victory as always .. and the people will remain divided .. so capital wins

 

[ViolentPanda]

A tad disingenuous on your part. Are you suggesting that Hitler should have been allowed to continue as he pleased?

Please don't break Godwin's law. It makes you look foolish.

Peace is always preferable, but when your neighbour is killing your citizens, the government has to act.

I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree.

 

[butchersapron]

I dont think he'll recognise the trap he's set for himself there VP

 

[Yetman]

Its a long shot, but if it takes a whole country to make a difference in the poor fellas life then I'm all for it. Come on Israel, do what five bellies couldnt and bring our hero back into the game

 

[El Jefe]

Aims as I see them are (a) to disrupt general society in Gaza and make it easier to control, and (b) to look tough for the elections in February.

c) Save some face after Lebanon

 

[Barking_Mad]

Elect a terrorist government which fires rockets at Israel, rockets that are aimed at civilian targets, then you may expect retaliation.

Another subscriber to the neo-history of events.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You can smuggle rocket parts and other weapons through relatively small tunnels, you cannot smuggle tens / hundreds of tonnes of food daily through the tunnels. The blockade is ineffective at stopping weapons smuggling and effective at stopping food, medical supplies, and fuel oil.

Which is why mosques have been used as communal food and fuel stores for years, and why hospitals would stockpile oxygen cylinders.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I dont think he'll recognise the trap he's set for himself there VP

I suspect that you're right about that.

 

[Student Minor]

Elect a terrorist government which fires rockets at Israel, rockets that are aimed at civilian targets, then you may expect retaliation.

iirc Hamas seized power and turfed Fatah out? That's not much of an election. I stand corrected but I thought that was how we came to the situtation of having Hamas controling Gaza and Fatah controling the West Bank.

 

[Spion]

iirc Hamas seized power and turfed Fatah out? That's not much of an election. I stand corrected but I thought that was how we came to the situtation of having Hamas controling Gaza and Fatah controling the West Bank.

Wrong. Fatah were about to launch a coup with US backing and Hamas got wind of it

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804

 

[agricola]

iirc Hamas seized power and turfed Fatah out? That's not much of an election. I stand corrected but I thought that was how we came to the situtation of having Hamas controling Gaza and Fatah controling the West Bank.

As Spion's link showed - and this Wikipedia article shows - the elections were remarkably free and fair and resulted in Hamas winning a majority. The Israelis and the West responded to this outbreak of democracy with sanctions, and then support for Fatah in the brief civil war that followed.

 

[tangentlama]

Why Israel Can't Win - article in forthcoming edition of TIME magazine

"Israel's leaders need to recognize that if Hamas cannot be beaten militarily, then it must be engaged politically. That means accepting the idea of dealing with some kind of Palestinian unity government that includes Hamas. A coalition between Hamas and Abbas is essential for the future of a Palestinian state and for moderating Hamas' extremism. Hamas, which 18 months ago chased Abbas' men from Gaza, says it will pair up with Abbas if he, along with the international community, recognizes that the Islamic militants legitimately came to power in the January 2006 elections. Israelis rightly view such claims with skepticism, and yet all Palestinians and their Arab backers reject the current situation, where the meager land set aside for a future state is chopped into two, Gaza and the West Bank, ruled by rivals.

A new Administration in Washington has a chance to be both supportive of Israel and honest with it. Over the past three years, many Israelis have told me that President George W. Bush was too good a friend of theirs. He gave Israelis all they wanted but didn't rein them in when they needed it. Israel eventually will have to pull back to the 1967 borders and dismantle many of the settlements on the Palestinian side, no matter how loudly its ultra-religious parties protest. Only then will the Palestinians and the other Arab states agree to a durable peace. It's as simple as that. But for 60 years, in the Holy Land, there has been a yawning gap between what was simple and what could be achieved."

 

[Wolveryeti]

c) Save some face after Lebanon

d) Do a massive shit on Gaza just in case this kind of thing becomes harder when Obama gets into power.

 

[Balbi]

Excellent bit on More4 news.

From when the cease fire was announced in June, between then and November 4th there were 18 rocket attacks on Israel. 15 of these have been confirmed by the Israeli government as NOT being fired by Hamas. The cease fire was broken by Israel who bombed the fuck out of a tunnel between Palestine and Egypt in a first strike 'to protect Israeli people'. Since then, Hamas have been back to pre-cease fire levels of attack.

And that's Palestines fault.

 

[agricola]

Excellent bit on More4 news.

From when the cease fire was announced in June, between then and November 4th there were 18 rocket attacks on Israel. 15 of these have been confirmed by the Israeli government as NOT being fired by Hamas. The cease fire was broken by Israel who bombed the fuck out of a tunnel between Palestine and Egypt in a first strike 'to protect Israeli people'. Since then, Hamas have been back to pre-cease fire levels of attack.

And that's Palestines fault.

It was actually a special forces raid that the IDF said was a tunnel Hamas were building with the intention of kidnapping Israeli troops, though the attack took place inside the Strip (near Deir al-Balah, which is sort of midway along the strip):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#End_of_2008_Ceasefire
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

But you are right, though the main reason for the ceasefire collapsing was Israel's lack of faith with regards to opening the crossings.

 

[rioted]

I wasn't being cryptic, i was wondering as you're a marxist revolutionary how this will effect the working classes of both states, rather than being concerned with ruling class aims.

"cos, of course, the working class can never be reactionary.