Can insects feel pain, or have emotions?

[frogwoman]

Not sure if that's strictly true - other animals such as lions can be seen to play with each other in the wild - surely that's a leisure activity? Not sure about insects however. We're the only species that has developed it to such a huge degree, though.

And as Callie said maybe the lack of a consciousness could be an evolutionary advantage. For example, I can't think that an aphid which was aware of its surroundings and of its probable eventual fate - killed by a large number of different organisms in a variety of progressively nastier ways - would be incredibly happy. It would be enough to make the aphid suicidally depressed. I don't know if aphids can be depressed but if they could it probably wouldn't do much for their survival ...

"I can't face going out and eating leaves today ... what a terrible world I'm bringing my children into ... there's no point in my life, all I do is eat and produce more aphids ... I'm such a failure and any minute now I'm going to be eaten ... oh shit ..."

 

[weltweit]

... And as Callie said maybe the lack of a consciousness could be an evolutionary advantage. For example, I can't think that an aphid which was aware of its surroundings and of its probable eventual fate - killed by a large number of different organisms in a variety of progressively nastier ways - would be incredibly happy. It would be enough to make the aphid suicidally depressed. I don't know if aphids can be depressed but if they could it probably wouldn't do much for their survival ...

But a lifetime for an aphid only appears to us to be short, a mayfly I think lives only one day, but for them that is their entire lives. My entire life will end with me pushing up the daisies being devoured by earthworms if I am lucky, probably after something that many would call a disease but which is actually no more significant than a cause of death. That could be something to get depressed about especially as we have developed a massive industry, the NHS, to try to stave off the inevitable end to our own tiny lives ! But it is not, life how ever long or short lasts a life-time and we can make the most of it in our own way .. or of course .. we have free will, we can always choose to be your depressed aphid

"I can't face going out and eating leaves today ... what a terrible world I'm bringing my children into ... there's no point in my life, all I do is eat and produce more aphids ... I'm such a failure and any minute now I'm going to be eaten ... oh shit ..."

 

[Callie]

But are humans superior to anything, how, why, in what significant way are humans superior to anything else?

Surely an equally valid view to take is that all life is equal, a life is a life, a life force, an elephant on the serengetti, neither superior nor inferior to a human in London, or an ant in Sheffield.

its perfectly valid but I cant see how it would be beneficial, in fact quite the opposite.

i dont think i said humans were superior and i dont believe they are. superior isnt the kind of label that really applies in the world of nature, its a point of view rather than a measure. sucess is a better measure but even that has its good and bad points and is difficult to quantify in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Callie]

can we ever fully understand another creature that is so different from ourselves

i doubt it tbh

we cant comprehend what their life must be like, how they work, why they work and what they think if they do at all

its hard to believe that a creature which is responsive to various stimuli would be so without sentient thought

what is the advantage of sentient thought and what are the drawbacks?

 

[Dillinger4]

I think there are varying degrees of consciousness.

A mosquito has some, a pig has more, a human it seems, has the most.

I think I agree with Hofstader anyway.

Weltweit - I am not even entirely sure what I disagree with, but I will say this. Using art as an example was a mistake. And I will never ever agree that Humans are comparable to Ants. Never.

 

[frogwoman]

its perfectly valid but I cant see how it would be beneficial, in fact quite the opposite.

i dont think i said humans were superior and i dont believe they are. superior isnt the kind of label that really applies in the world of nature, its a point of view rather than a measure. sucess is a better measure but even that has its good and bad points and is difficult to quantify in the grand scheme of things.

Well ultimately i guess like all animals we all have to take the view that the goal is the survival of the species. Thinking that all life is equal, while perfectly valid and quite a noble thing to aspire to, is not really a practical thing in reality since it would mean that our basic activities for survival, such as eating, moving, etc, are severely limited.

 

[frogwoman]

I don't believe humans are superior either. But I do think that for humans the life of our species should take priority over others.

 

[weltweit]

I think there are varying degrees of consciousness.

A mosquito has some, a pig has more, a human it seems, has the most.

I think I agree with Hofstader anyway.

How or why does a human have a greater consciousness than an elephant or a blue whale?

Weltweit - I am not even entirely sure what I disagree with, but I will say this. Using art as an example was a mistake. And I will never ever agree that Humans are comparable to Ants. Never.

Ah .. I will have to further refine my arguments then

Imagine though for a moment that you are on the top of a large high hill overlooking some roads and part of a medium sized town. You have a pair of binoculars and you can observe the roads and the edge of the town and see all the busy activity that ebbs and flows around the town, all the delivery trucks, the HGVs the passenger cars containing sales people and workers going to work or home, you can see some of what happens in and around that town, imagine all that you could see with your Binos.

Then imagine that you are observing an ants nest and some of the area around it, what do you see? what activity, what deliveries what do the workers appear to be doing? can you really argue that there are no similarities? none at all?

 

[Callie]

I don't believe humans are superior either. But I do think that for humans the life of our species should take priority over others.

but if were the only species to be aware of our impact on others and the intricacies of all that jazz shouldnt we be focusing on ways to live with not against our fellow earth dwellers

although obviously this is something only some of our species can consider cos the rest are actually still just trying to survive

 

[Dillinger4]

I don' think its fair to use notions of 'importance' or 'superiority' in this context. That kind of thing is all relative.

But it can be entirely fair to say that Humans have more developed self concepts.

We should be kind to animals in as much as they display how much consciousness they have.

I live by that anyway.

I don't eat pig or cow. But I eat a little bit of chicken, and I eat fish.

Swatting a fly or stepping on an ant wouldn't bother me.

 

[frogwoman]

but if were the only species to be aware of our impact on others and the intricacies of all that jazz shouldnt we be focusing on ways to live with not against our fellow earth dwellers

although obviously this is something only some of our species can consider cos the rest are actually still just trying to survive

Agreed We have the luxury of being able to do that so we should do that imo and i think insects' should for the most part be treated with respect ...

 

[Dillinger4]

Its amazing if you think about it.

Human consciousness developed from the very same level displayed by insects.

 

[frogwoman]

i'd try not to kill flies or ants, but if i did it wouldn't really be a huge tragedy ladybirds, grasshoppers, butterflies, beetles etc are something different, i feel quite upset when I see a dead ladybird or a butterfly (unless I've killed it on purpose like one of the harlequin ladybirds, but even then I still feel pretty guilty).

I think wasps do have more of a consciousness than other insects but I still hate them and don't have a problem with killing them although I would never be purposely cruel to a wasp while i was killing it ... for obvious reasons, i think ...

 

[weltweit]

but if were the only species to be aware of our impact on others and the intricacies of all that jazz shouldnt we be focusing on ways to live with not against our fellow earth dwellers ...

I agree with this, we should be focussing on living in harmony sustainably with the planet our home and the other creatures that inhabit it.

But we appear not to have any desire to limit our own population or activity either locally or globally.

The fact that we, the human species, are not as a whole living like that adds weight to the argument that we are not surperior to humble creatures. Human population is set to rise enormously in years to come and climate change caused by human activity is on the way. Humans are apparently spoiling the large swathes of the planet with climate change and at the moment there is no mechanism for the relocation of millions and millions of humans when we have multiple nation states and immigration control.

Millions of humans will be forced by the actions of our species to relocate to areas that are still viable. Our inability to avoid population growth and climate change indicates that just like a so called "simple" colony of ants, we will just have to up and move, in our millions. Our human civilisations will not appear so superior when or perhaps if that time comes.

 

[Dillinger4]

I agree with this, we should be focussing on living in harmony sustainably with the planet our home and the other creatures that inhabit it.

But we appear not to have any desire to limit our own population or activity either locally or globally.

The fact that we, the human species, are not as a whole living like that adds weight to the argument that we are not surperior to humble creatures. Human population is set to rise enormously in years to come and climate change caused by human activity is on the way. Humans are apparently spoiling the large swathes of the planet with climate change and at the moment there is no mechanism for the relocation of millions and millions of humans when we have multiple nation states and immigration control.

Millions of humans will be forced by the actions of our species to relocate to areas that are still viable. Our inability to avoid population growth and climate change indicates that just like a so called "simple" colony of ants, we will just have to up and move, in our millions. Our human civilisations will not appear so superior when or perhaps if that time comes.

I am sorry to have to say this Weltweit, but what a load of twaddle.

1) If anything on this thread is anthropomorphic, its applying the ideas of 'better' or 'superior' to Humans over other species.

You are also seem to be applying Human experience to that of Ants.

2) You seem hell bent on talking about Environmentalism, which frankly, I find excruciatingly dull, and pretty much none of it has anything to do with the OP.

But consider this. If Ants lived on the scale we do, they would most likely have destroyed the planet far more quickly. And they wouldn't even give a fuck.

 

[jonH]

I am sorry to have to say this Weltweit, but what a load of twaddle.

1) If anything on this thread is anthropomorphic, its applying the ideas of 'better' or 'superior' to Humans over other species.

You are also seem to be applying Human experience to that of Ants.

2) You seem hell bent on talking about Environmentalism, which frankly, I find excruciatingly dull, and pretty much none of it has anything to do with the OP.

But consider this. If Ants lived on the scale we do, they would most likely have destroyed the planet far more quickly. And they wouldn't even give a fuck.

DO ANTS FUCK

 

[weltweit]

... 1) If anything on this thread is anthropomorphic, its applying the ideas of 'better' or 'superior' to Humans over other species.

What I am saying is that humans are not better or superior to other species. That ants like humans basically carry on doing their thing until something or someone stops them.

2) You seem hell bent on talking about Environmentalism, which frankly, I find excruciatingly dull, and pretty much none of it has anything to do with the OP.

Just that humans appear to be concerned about damage to their global environment but are doing nothing about it. Ants also do nothing about it, but, when their environment is sufficiently damaged they like humans have only limited choices, move (migrate) or die.

But consider this. If Ants lived on the scale we do, they would most likely have destroyed the planet far more quickly. And they wouldn't even give a fuck.

If ants lived on the scale we do, do you mean population wise, I expect there are billions and billions more ants than there are humans.

Or do you mean individual size wise, if an ant was as large as a human, well the rules would still apply, do what you do until something or someone stops you.

Land animal habitation requires food and drinkable water, if either become scarce, or too far away to be transported in, the animals have no choice except move or die. It is just the same story for humans and ants, hence no large human cities in the middle of the Gobi desert and hence what will happen for humans if climate change and global warming renders large parts of the earth uninhabitable for humans.

 

[Cheesypoof]

No time to read thread so heres my tuppenceworth, in response to the OP. I think insects probably can feel pain, as can all animals feel emotion and pain. Elephants mourn their dead, a dog or cat can show love, empathy and affection. I stumbled across something recently of karl jung that said that animals cannot feel emotions because of their instinct to survive, kill, and tenderly care for their young. Who was he to know what they are thinking?

 

[Citizen66]

Elephants mourn their dead, a dog or cat can show love, empathy and affection.

Which doesn't address whether they feel pain or not.

Of course animals feel pain the same as we do so as to keep us alive long enough to procreate.

It's the same as having no answer to life after death. If life after death is so great then why keep on living??

That's the answer.

If the afterlife is so good then the living wouldn't live anymore and take the better option of death and then life itself would cease to be and the afterlife would be destitute with the negative mind-set.

It all gets silly, doesn't it?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It used to be that it was thought that dogs and other animals do not feel pain, or have any kind of emotional reaction at all, whereas by now it is well established that they do (as well as being common sense - like if you've ever observed what a dog gets like when it is left alone for long periods of time).

I don't think anyone ever thought that dogs don't feel pain. They always yelp if you accidentally step on their tail.

Also, if dogs had no emotional reaction, that whole Korean thing about scaring them before you kill them, in order to improve the taste, would be totally misguided.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yeah, I mean to what extent is our view that insects don't/can't feel emotions a social construct? Just because we can't understand the mind of an insect doesn't mean that they don't have any of these abilities. There isn't any way we can really say.
...

Maybe a moth is having a constant orgasm as it flies around a lightbulb.

And if a cockroach looks up just as your foot descends to crush it, does it experience a feeling of dread?

I was thinking about bugs the other day. I was walking by a hospital. You know when you squash a bug, you get broken feelers, wings etc?

In a way, we're just like bugs, except we have hospitals for when our parts get squashed and broken. But underneath, it's the same thing.

 

[maomao]

DO ANTS FUCK

Yes, ants fuck. In fact they grow wings solely for the purpose of fucking. The 'flying ants' that most people seem to think are a separate species to normal ants are in fact 'fucking ants', taking to the wing purely to reproduce.

 

[Callie]

i fucking hate those fucking ants

theyre really creepy

 

[Dillinger4]

What I am saying is that humans are not better or superior to other species. That ants like humans basically carry on doing their thing until something or someone stops them.



Just that humans appear to be concerned about damage to their global environment but are doing nothing about it. Ants also do nothing about it, but, when their environment is sufficiently damaged they like humans have only limited choices, move (migrate) or die.



If ants lived on the scale we do, do you mean population wise, I expect there are billions and billions more ants than there are humans.

Or do you mean individual size wise, if an ant was as large as a human, well the rules would still apply, do what you do until something or someone stops you.

Land animal habitation requires food and drinkable water, if either become scarce, or too far away to be transported in, the animals have no choice except move or die. It is just the same story for humans and ants, hence no large human cities in the middle of the Gobi desert and hence what will happen for humans if climate change and global warming renders large parts of the earth uninhabitable for humans.

The crucial difference is, we are aware it is wrong. We could do something about it. If ants fucked up their environment or whatever, they would just die.

To be honest, I am not even sure if I believe in 'Global Warming'. Its all got a bit hysterical.

 

[weltweit]

The crucial difference is, we are aware it is wrong. We could do something about it. If ants fucked up their environment or whatever, they would just die.

I agree that humans seem to believe that they are not taking care of their environment as best they should in a global or planet like sense, not being good guardians for example and that ants probably do not have that sort of concept.

Yet, I think, ants when they denude one area so much that their nest becomes unviable, they do reach a point where somehow, by some ant, probably the queen, the decision is taken to move, or stay and die.

How can ants reach that decision with their tiny minds?

To be honest, I am not even sure if I believe in 'Global Warming'. Its all got a bit hysterical.

I am also not really sure, there seems to be a balance in favour of human caused climate change but it remains to be seen, to me at least, if it is fact or fiction. I seem to recall something called a hole in the ozone layer, wonder what happenned about that, then there was the millenium bug, hundreds of airplanes dropping from the skies, nothing happenned!

I guess with these things only time will tell.

I do think that human populations will be controlled by the same natural forces as other animals, and insects etc. The planet is litterred with ancient civilisations that failed and whose remains are empty of habitation. When the water dries up and the harvest fails the only option is to leave, applies to ants termites elephants and humans.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yes, ants fuck. In fact they grow wings solely for the purpose of fucking. The 'flying ants' that most people seem to think are a separate species to normal ants are in fact 'fucking ants', taking to the wing purely to reproduce.

They're not 'fucking ants'. They're male ants, whose purpose it is to mate with prospective queens.

The average ant is a non-queen female, and never gets her ashes hauled.

 

[maomao]

They're not 'fucking ants'. They're male ants, whose purpose it is to mate with prospective queens.

The queen flies too dude or are they all jacking off in mid air?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The queen flies too dude or are they all jacking off in mid air?

Who said anything different.

 

[maomao]

Who said anything different.

Well then the flying ants are indeed fucking ants then. I don't see your point.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Well then the flying ants are indeed fucking ants then. I don't see your point.

The flying ants are mostly male ants, with a few prospective queens thrown in. Most of the male ants never get the chance to mate.