Campaign to Remove the Star of David from the Israelis Flag

[nino_savatte]

Was once in LA and heard some lefty shock jocks winding up the patriots by saying that burning the stars and stripes was a very american thing to do. As they put it, if it's an individual's right to pay for a flag it is their right to do as they wish with it, including burn it

I love Bill Hicks's take on the flag.

I personally do not believe in burning the flag. It's a personal belief, but I'll tell you something, I think people are overreacting, oh, just a little bit. "Hey buddy, my daddy died for that flag." Well, I bought mine. Sorry. You know they sell them at K-Mart for three bucks, you're in, you're out, brand new flag, no violence was necessary. "Hey buddy, my daddy died in the Korean war for that flag." What a coincidence - my flag was made in Korea!
http://www.centripedus.com/bhpage.html

 

[ViolentPanda]

The star of David is of course Jewish. He was one of their famous kings. But that doesn't mean that it is necessarily religious even though you will most likely have heard about him in a religious book which is really just the history of the Jewish people written in a religious way.

It's the emblem of the house of David.

The star of David is however a Zionist symbol and the Zionists claim that they are secular not religious Jews.

It's not "a Zionist symbol", it's been appropriated by the nationalist-Zionists as a a symbol, which is a different thing altogether.

I once saw a star of David flag being burned. It was done by Orthodox Jews in a park in Luton at a rally supported primarily by pro-Palestinian Muslims. It was a strange experience watching these Jews in their traditional garb approaching the rally and then producing and burning the Star of David flag. I suppose it is the secular aspect of Zionism that annoys them, along with a different religious interpretation of the 'Promised Land.'

yup.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Some orthodox Jews consider the state of Israel to be a blasphemy, as they believe Zion can only be created by god in heaven - and not by humans on earth. I think...

Not just the orthodox either, many non-nationalist-Zionists believe similar, although perhaps not as dogmatically as the orthodox.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nope, that one is even further from the supposed christian root!

Not really, given how St. Andrew was martyred.

 

[ViolentPanda]

in what way is a flag anything more than a scrap of cloth?

Through what it is commonly understood to symbolise.

 

[poster342002]

Not just the orthodox either, many non-nationalist-Zionists believe similar, although perhaps not as dogmatically as the orthodox.

Of course, I just thought it was an interesting point to make that some orthodox ones are anti-zionist for those reasons.

 

[Streathamite]

Through what it is commonly understood to symbolise.

agreed, i'm just baffled by the sort of mentality that would invest it with that much symbolic value

 

[poster342002]

The Stars and Stripes has become more than a flag for some people. It has become the symbolic embodiment of the nation and like the Constitution, it has taken on a completely new life to the one originally assigned to it. The Constitution has become a sort of holy writ that can never be challenged or changed. Most republics that were formed in the 18th century and beyond have had more than one constitution and certainly more than one republic. The US is unique in this regard because it feels that it is "God's chosen land" and it doesn't feel the need to move with the times.

The USA does seem (like the UK) to be frozen in time, politically. Sort of living museums, forever venerating their own antiquity instead of evolving. Both the UK and USA are in lots of ways very strange phenomena.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

thats okay most terrorist regimes don't like to admit that either

I'm not the member of any regime.

 

[moono]

I'm not the member of any regime.

Come out from behind that definite article.

 

[coccinelle]

What about the two blue stripes?

My understanding was that the two blue stripes represented the rivers Nile and Euphrates, which is what the early zionists believed represented the land that belonged to Israel and which (presumably) Israel is destined to reclaim. Hence their expansionism, I suppose.

 

[invisibleplanet]

I think this is one of the 'official' interpretations of the flag's meaning:

The blue stripes symbolize the stripes of the tallith (fringed prayer shawl), and the Shield of David represents the need for defense to protect the Jewish Nation - i.e. Israel. The six points of the star and the tallith stripes symbolise the unity of the spiritual and the secular.

The Israeli flag itself was introduced into the Zionist movement in the late 1800s and became the official flag of the Zionist Movement in the 18th Zionist Congress in 1933, being adopted as the national flag six months after the declaration of the State of Israel.

 

[Lock&Light]

My understanding was that the two blue stripes represented the rivers Nile and Euphrates

No, no! The blue lines represent the Atlantic and the Pacific. China is part of the Holy Land, you know.

 

[moono]

No, no! The blue lines represent the Atlantic and the Pacific. China is part of the Holy Land, you know.

Your support for Zionist expansionism is already well known. There's no requirement to support it with excruciating attempts at satire.

 

[Lock&Light]

Your support for Zionist expansionism is already well known.

No such support can be well know as it doesn't exist. No-one who has read what I have said over the years could possibly come to that conclusion, except if they are as disorientated as you clearly are.

 

[ViolentPanda]

agreed, i'm just baffled by the sort of mentality that would invest it with that much symbolic value

Often those who are insecure about their national history.

 

[nino_savatte]

The USA does seem (like the UK) to be frozen in time, politically. Sort of living museums, forever venerating their own antiquity instead of evolving. Both the UK and USA are in lots of ways very strange phenomena.

The difference between the two is that the US has created symbolic embodiments in the absence of something more tangible: a monarch, for example, is seen as the living embodiment of the state. The Stars and Stripes has taken on a life of its own; the way in which it is venerated reminds me a lot of how icons were venerated by the so-called Byzantines.

 

[nino_savatte]

Often those who are insecure about their national history.

Aye, that's how it was in the US and, of course, Israel.

 

[Lock&Light]

Aye, that's how it was in the US and, of course, Israel.

How can anyone say that the Israelis are 'insecure about their national history'?

 

[Gmart]

Of course they are, even if they don't actually accept responsibility, they still know deep down that they are systematically abusing the Arabs who live in their country.

 

[Lock&Light]

Of course they are, even if they don't actually accept responsibility, they still know deep down that they are systematically abusing the Arabs who live in their country.

Arabs only appear late in Israeli history.

 

[Spion]

How can anyone say that the Israelis are 'insecure about their national history'?

You've never been there? You've never witnessed the siege mentality? You've never noticed how thickly ladled the official history of 1947/48 is? You've not noticed the academics that question it are vilified and hounded from their jobs?

 

[Spion]

Arabs only appear late in Israeli history.

Can you give dates, as that bald little statement appears bizarrely uninformed

 

[Gmart]

Arabs only appear late in Israeli history.

History again!

So what?! They exist there now, it is their homeland as well as the Israelis, and so giving them a flag with an identifiably Judaistic symbol on it, and expecting them to accept it as their own is just unrealistic at best.

I might add that more recent history does not show the Israelis in a particularly good light, but this campaign is about putting history behind us and trying to find a solution which can lead to a lasting peace.

Removing this symbol from a flag would show that the secular nature of Israel is not just spin on an actual theocracy.

 

[invisibleplanet]

History again!

So what?! They exist there now, it is their homeland as well as the Israelis, and so giving them a flag with an identifiably Judaistic symbol on it, and expecting them to accept it as their own is just unrealistic at best.

But you're looking at this through European eyes. That symbol has a long history throughout the ME - why do you expect that those people who actually live there would be as ignorant as you are .

I might add that more recent history does not show the Israelis in a particularly good light, but this campaign is about putting history behind us and trying to find a solution which can lead to a lasting peace.

Sorry, this is as ridiculous as buying new underwear because your sex-life has slumped - it's not about outward appearance at all - your campaign is alienating to those very people whose mindset you say you disapprove of. Now you propose to remove the cumulative symbol of Jewish defence against centuries of European Christian anti-Semitism (which was directed at both Jew and Muslim, often in tandem) and you don't even have a meaningful replacement to represent the sum total of your vision for your rebranding! Your idea is full of fail.

Removing this symbol from a flag would show that the secular nature of Israel is not just spin on an actual theocracy.

See above. Adding that the symbol you propose to remove is actually the secular symbol - the stripes are considered to be the spiritual symbol. The flag was a zionist flag first, then the Israeli flag second.

Are you a bored british student (not of graphic design, obviously) that couldn't think of a more mutually supportive campaign to propose?

 

[invisibleplanet]

Can you give dates, as that bald little statement appears bizarrely uninformed

I believe he's referring to the revisionist zionist/Kahani narrative, popular amongst the "Palestine never existed as a nation - there are no Palestinian People - they are just 'Ayrabs'' brigade which claims wrongfully that 'Arabs' appeared in Palestine around 400 years ago and that the majority arrived after Israel's creation! (otherwise known as 'the lies people tell to other peoples' children' or 'revisionist rot' - both dangerous to propogate in the long-term because they risk driving support away once these 'lies' are discovered)

(Bradley Burston (Ha'aretz) No Palestinians, No Palestine, No Problem: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/798657.html)

 

[BlackSpecs]

I think the Taliban were spot on when they had this one as their official flag for a while (1996-1997) :

 

[Lock&Light]

I believe he's referring to the revisionist zionist/Kahani narrative, popular amongst the "Palestine never existed as a nation - there are no Palestinian People - they are just 'Ayrabs'' brigade which claims wrongfully that 'Arabs' appeared in Palestine around 400 years ago

No, I'm referring to the thousand years of Israeli history before Arabs were even mentioned.

 

[invisibleplanet]

No, I'm referring to the thousand years of Israeli history before Arabs were even mentioned.

Which history would that be, L&L?

 

[Lock&Light]

Which history would that be, L&L?

The one that the Israelis are not insecure about.