Campaign to Remove the Star of David from the Israelis Flag

[poster342002]

I once saw a star of David flag being burned. It was done by Orthodox Jews in a park in Luton at a rally supported primarily by pro-Palestinian Muslims. It was a strange experience watching these Jews in their traditional garb approaching the rally and then producing and burning the Star of David flag. I suppose it is the secular aspect of Zionism that annoys them, along with a different religious interpretation of the 'Promised Land.'

Some orthodox Jews consider the state of Israel to be a blasphemy, as they believe Zion can only be created by god in heaven - and not by humans on earth. I think...

 

[invisibleplanet]

It was once common knowledge among the left in britain that the union flag has also been known as 'the butcher's apron', which I think indicates an awareness of what the empire's flag has meant to many around the world

I didn't know that

In 1978, the artist Hundertwasser designed a Peace Flag for the near East with a green Arab crescent moon and blue Star of David against a white background and also published a Peace Manifesto he'd written. I'll see if I can find a copy.

 

[Gmart]

I don't disagree with much here.

It would cost nothing to simply have an olive branch instead of the Star of David (for example) and it would show that the Israelis were trying to get away from their ridiculous 'This is our promised land' mantra, towards a more modern, truly secular, equal rights for all, inclusive country.

It might be a small thing to campaign on, but it could be a good rallying point. A campaign which both sides could agree on, leading to a later consensus on the more important stuff.

By the way, the Israelis seem to think that it is NOT a religious symbol, and so it is not unreasonable to expect the Arab-Israelis citizens to live under it.

I also do NOT see the cross on the St George flag as religious. It is the wrong way round for starters. The Star of David is MUCH more recognisably Jewish than that.

 

[Lock&Light]

I also do NOT see the cross on the St George flag as religious. It is the wrong way round for starters. The Star of David is MUCH more recognisably Jewish than that.

The St.Andrew's Cross on the Scottish flag is not 'the wrong way round'.

 

[Gmart]

The St.Andrew's Cross on the Scottish flag is not 'the wrong way round'.

Nope, that one is even further from the supposed christian root!

 

[Lock&Light]

Nope, that one is even further from the supposed christian root!

So you don't think that St.Andrew felt it unfitting to die in the same way as Jesus and asked to have his cross raised on its side?

 

[poster342002]

My guess is that the Israeli flag would probably be redesigned if some sort of federal-but-unitary state (as opposed to two seperate states) was set up with the Palestinians. Probably some sort of amalgamnted hybrid flag along the lines of the current South African one (which combines the old apartheid-era flag with that of the ANC). Chances are the star-of-david would not be present (nor would an Islamic crescent be), with the palestinian colours bisecting the white-with-blue-stripe bits.

 

[invisibleplanet]

It would cost nothing?
Are you aware of how much a rebrand costs?
We're talking billions.

The earliest archaelogical (material) evidence for the Magen David (Shield of David) in Judaism comes from Sidon in 7th CE, but afaik didn't gain popularity in diaspora communities until around 12th CE. Prior to that, earliest evidence for use of that symbol in that region dates to 7th BCE and there is no proven connection to the real David, just myths and legends (but every culture has these myths and legends as part of their tradition). By early 20th Century, the Magen David is used by all and sundry diaspora Jewish communities to denote their idenity as Jews as they participate in social events, especially sports.

However, and this is a very big however, this symbol is NOT exclusively Jewish. It's use is found throughout many, many cultures with each culture assigning it's own significance to the six-pointed star as a sign. I'm told it does have significance to all Abrahamic religions - Judaism, Christianity and Islam (great lovers of geometric shapes!). If you look hard enough, you'll find it's use throughout the middle and far east, beyond Judaism - to what's considered to be the first monotheistic religion: Zorastrianism (who were afaik, the originators of the middle-eastern flood-myths).

It was used throughout Persia - and recorded as being used during the time of Alexander the Great, especially in relation to metalurgical methods, but not exclusively, being a symbol widely used throughout the middle east region. It's used in Buddhist temples. It's used in Tantic yantras. It's used throughout India and Tibet.

This symbol is NOT exclusively Jewish, whatever you might think, although when Jews talk of it, they call it 'Shield/Star of David'.

 

[Gmart]

History means nothing my friend. The present day situation is that this symbol is seem by most as the symbol of Judaism. So much so that it gets put on a book called judaism for dummies!!!

It might well not be fair, or even historically accurate/consistent, but that's life for you!!

 

[goldenecitrone]

I have to say I agree. I reckon Israel would have much more respect in the world if they replaced the star of David with a big smiley face.

 

[invisibleplanet]

I can't thelp thinking that any Israeli that recognises the ethnic cleansing their country is built on and the continuing injustices it perpetuates would very happily ditch that flag and its ethnically exclusive connotations as part of building a new society. That's not to say, however, that I think campaigning about flags should be any kind of priority. Especially as putting such symbolism at the forefront of campaigns just tends to wind up those you need to convince and that you never get to the really important issues.

Yes, I agree with this, and a change or alteration of flag design could only come about after an ideological, political, territorial change - with the design reflecting that change, but that change hasn't happened yet, and as you've said, it's the issues of change that are important, not the design of the flag.

Before that stage of flag-change is reached, if ever, there are real and pressing concerns - the cessation of occupation, the formation of a Palestinian state, the resolution of the Palestinian refugee situation, the return of land taken under pretext of 'security'.

Maybe one day there can be a reunification of Israel and Palestine, then we might see the two flags merging somehow to become one, but surely the essence of a change of outward symbolism (e.g. flag) is to represent an inner ideological change.

 

[Streathamite]

How do you expect the Arabs who live as Israelis citizens, to accept a flag with that on it?

in what way is a flag anything more than a scrap of cloth?

 

[invisibleplanet]

History means nothing my friend. The present day situation is that this symbol is seem by most as the symbol of Judaism. So much so that it gets put on a book called judaism for dummies!!!

It might well not be fair, or even historically accurate/consistent, but that's life for you!!

So you propose changing the decor of your house because you're unhappy with it's location? Or perhaps you solve deep-rooted partnership problems by changing your external appearance? Or maybe your company is failing due to staff skill deficit , so you propose an expensive rebrand in the hope that you'll glean more business.

Yours is a shallow and ridiculous campaign that hasn't even bothered linked to any of the Israeli concerns - in fact, your shallow outlook is guaranteed to fuel the wingnuts on the right to demean the Israeli-led campaigns for equality between Israeli Jews & Israeli non-Jews.

Reluctance to address these causes on the Israeli Govt's part will have a knock-on effect should any Jew wish to live in the future Palestinian state. It's very very important that external support for equal rights is not diminished by scrapping over what a flag looks like.

 

[nino_savatte]

The Israeli flag got redesigned some time ago- by an Israeli.

 

[nino_savatte]

in what way is a flag anything more than a scrap of cloth?

That's a good question to ask your average Yank. Most Americans regard their flag with a reverence that borders on the absurd.

If the flag touches the ground, it has to be burned. May many more US flags touch the ground!

 

[Aldebaran]

how do u expect hindus livin in pakistan to accept a flag with the islamic symbol on it?

1. Pakistan is an Islamic country
2. The crescent moon is not an Islamic symbol. Its (ancient) origin isn't clear to any historian but there is more or less a consensus about it that the Turks (Ottomans) adopted the flag of Constantinople (Istanbul) which carried this symbol.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

If there would ever be a Palestine/Israel one-state solution, design of a new flag which for both would represent that unity would in my idea one of the issues on the table.

salaam

 

[invisibleplanet]

If there would ever be a Palestine/Israel one-state solution, design of a new flag which for both would represent that unity would in my idea one of the issues on the table.

salaam

Agreed.

 

[Aldebaran]

That's a good question to ask your average Yank. Most Americans regard their flag with a reverence that borders on the absurd.

More to the point: It borders on religion. Nationalism in its US form incorporates enough religious aspects for being qualified as such by any sociologist.

If the flag touches the ground, it has to be burned. May many more US flags touch the ground!

I didn't know that.
Then why all that silly childish outcry by US'ers whenever someone burns their flag? Those people only clean up Contaminated Holyness. US'ers should be grateful.

salaam.

 

[nino_savatte]

More to the point: It borders on religion. Nationalism in its US form incorporates enough religious aspects for being qualified as such by any sociologist.



I didn't know that.
Then why all that silly childish outcry by US'ers whenever someone burns their flag? Those people only clean up Contaminated Holyness. US'ers should be grateful.

salaam.

There is an sort of religious attachment to the flag that reminds me of the way in which supposed holy relics are revered and fetishised.

Aye, there is a real contradiction between the way the flag is revered and the way many 'patriots' scream when the flag is burned.

 

[Spion]

Aye, there is a real contradiction between the way the flag is revered and the way many 'patriots' scream when the flag is burned.

Was once in LA and heard some lefty shock jocks winding up the patriots by saying that burning the stars and stripes was a very american thing to do. As they put it, if it's an individual's right to pay for a flag it is their right to do as they wish with it, including burn it

 

[Gmart]

The Nazi symbol could easily be proved thru history as not being associated with what happened in the Second World War, but that doesn't mean that it is a reasonable symbol to have on a flag, and it doesn't mean that the Israelis wouldn't be slightly upset if it were imposed on theirs.

They would be, I think very upset because despite the historical issue, this symbol represents the evil that happened in WW2.

Invisible planet makes a good point saying that there are certain issues which desperately need to be resolved, and I agree. I don't think that this campaign would stop this resolution tho. It is a straightforward issue which everyone can agree on quite easily, with little cost.

the cessation of occupation, the formation of a Palestinian state, the resolution of the Palestinian refugee situation, the return of land taken under pretext of 'security'.

These are all important issues, tho any creation of two states leads (IMO) to a polorisation, and so to probable future conflict. It will inevitably be a one-state solution which eventually solves this issue.

 

[poster342002]

Most Americans regard their flag with a reverence that borders on the absurd.

I expect you'd find that in a lot of places, though - North Korea for example.

 

[Aldebaran]

I expect you'd find that in a lot of places, though - North Korea for example.

I can be wrong but I don't think N.Korea, unlike the USA, ever showed the arrogance to proclaim itself all over the world to be The Prime Example of Democracy and Freedom and even more: The Leader of the "Free" World.
Clearly in the USA "being free" means you have to worship the flag of the nation in order to fit into the nation's ideas of "democracy".

salaam.

 

[poster342002]

I can be wrong but I don't think N.Korea, unlike the USA, ever showed the arrogance to proclaim itself all over the world to be The Prime Example of Democracy and Freedom and even more: The Leader of the "Free" World.
Clearly in the USA "being free" means you have to worship the flag of the nation in order to fit into the nation's ideas of "democracy".

salaam.

True, but North Korea does pretty much proclaim itself (internally and to anyone else who'll listen) to be the most demoractic, idyllic country inthe world (it's official name is "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea"). I would expect that defacing or burning the North Korean flag would be considered tantamount to treasonous blasphemy there!

 

[Streathamite]

That's a good question to ask your average Yank. Most Americans regard their flag with a reverence that borders on the absurd.

If the flag touches the ground, it has to be burned. May many more US flags touch the ground!

ohy gawd yes, in fact every time I ask the question 'why does a flag matter" to a certain type of seppoe, they look at me as if I am mad and/or satanic!

 

[T & P]

re the OP: does Israel really sees itself as a secular country? What with all the no-working-on-the-Sabbath laws and whatnot?

 

[poster342002]

re the OP: does Israel really sees itself as a secular country? What with all the no-working-on-the-Sabbath laws and whatnot?

I don't think that's ever been properly established one way or the other. Israel has no written constitution, for example, where the secular (or not) nature of the state could be formally defined.

I think the answer is it's a bit of both. A sort of quasi-secular but religious-based republic.

 

[nino_savatte]

I expect you'd find that in a lot of places, though - North Korea for example.

The Stars and Stripes has become more than a flag for some people. It has become the symbolic embodiment of the nation and like the Constitution, it has taken on a completely new life to the one originally assigned to it. The Constitution has become a sort of holy writ that can never be challenged or changed. Most republics that were formed in the 18th century and beyond have had more than one constitution and certainly more than one republic. The US is unique in this regard because it feels that it is "God's chosen land" and it doesn't feel the need to move with the times.

 

[nino_savatte]

ohy gawd yes, in fact every time I ask the question 'why does a flag matter" to a certain type of seppoe, they look at me as if I am mad and/or satanic!

It has taken on a life that resembles that of the holy relic (the Spear of Christ for example).