Campaign for a New Workers Party
- Thread starter Philbc03
- Start date
"1. Are you saying that it was the SWP that held the STW demos?
2. How where they anti-imperialist protests?"
1) The SWP was instruental in shaping how the Stop the War Coalition has developed. When it was first being set up, others on the left (not sure about the SP, but definately the ISG) argued that STWC should just be set up via the (then) Socialist Alliance. Our argument was that it was more important to build a mass movement going beyond the confines of the existing left.
2)Speaker after speaker on the majority of these mass mobilisations have denounced uk/us imperialism and been cheered to the rafters.
"not really, it was written just like that in sw as the SWP (which I had recently rejoined at the time) was trying to argue that it was not non-payment by ordinary bods that was the key, rather it would be action by the poll tax workers themselves, refusing to implement it, that was crucial.
Now obviously everyone would probably agree that such action would be a more certain and effective method, bit it was never ever really on the cards. It was, in retrospect, a position held to distinguish the SWP from Militant."
There were a small number of strikes - we tried to spread them. Some were against implementing the poll tax, others focussed on adding the poll tax to wage demands. Obviously the ones based on implementation were the most political, but they fizzled out after a while. We were not the only people in the anti poll tax movement to target these struggles - remember the '3-D network'? (Don't collect, Don't pay, Don't implement).
"The additional activities nwnm mentions were already happening anyway, they were not the brave and bold suggestions of the SWP" Not sure about this - at one point there was a concerted effort not to have a 2nd big annual national demo in March/April, but just a 'peoples march' (similar to the hunger marches of the 30's). This had to be debated out and won at (I think) the 2nd annual conference of the All Britain Anti Poll Tax Fed.
2. How where they anti-imperialist protests?"
1) The SWP was instruental in shaping how the Stop the War Coalition has developed. When it was first being set up, others on the left (not sure about the SP, but definately the ISG) argued that STWC should just be set up via the (then) Socialist Alliance. Our argument was that it was more important to build a mass movement going beyond the confines of the existing left.
2)Speaker after speaker on the majority of these mass mobilisations have denounced uk/us imperialism and been cheered to the rafters.
"not really, it was written just like that in sw as the SWP (which I had recently rejoined at the time) was trying to argue that it was not non-payment by ordinary bods that was the key, rather it would be action by the poll tax workers themselves, refusing to implement it, that was crucial.
Now obviously everyone would probably agree that such action would be a more certain and effective method, bit it was never ever really on the cards. It was, in retrospect, a position held to distinguish the SWP from Militant."
There were a small number of strikes - we tried to spread them. Some were against implementing the poll tax, others focussed on adding the poll tax to wage demands. Obviously the ones based on implementation were the most political, but they fizzled out after a while. We were not the only people in the anti poll tax movement to target these struggles - remember the '3-D network'? (Don't collect, Don't pay, Don't implement).
"The additional activities nwnm mentions were already happening anyway, they were not the brave and bold suggestions of the SWP" Not sure about this - at one point there was a concerted effort not to have a 2nd big annual national demo in March/April, but just a 'peoples march' (similar to the hunger marches of the 30's). This had to be debated out and won at (I think) the 2nd annual conference of the All Britain Anti Poll Tax Fed.
dennisr
the acceptable face
nwnm said:
The first person (and the first to be gaoled for refusing to pay) was from the isle of Wight - He is (still) a member of Militant now SP - i know him personally - i was in the same magistrates court ...
Ask your cdes in scotland where the tax was introduced a year earlier ... it seems everybody but you knows it
I think nwnm's aim here is simply to derail any discussion on th CNWP - it is not the first time he has done it - it is his general tactic, i suppose a replacement for political discussion.
ps and don't call me 'Den', thanks, that would lend a sort of intimacy to your posts we do not have
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Oh dear, nwnm, you tried to rewrite history yourself there and walked right into... someone who was in the SWP at the time and knows that you are talking bollocks. As an aside, when I was in the SSP briefly I spent a lot of time hanging around with a few SW Platform members and none of them had any hesitation in describing their line on the poll tax as ill thought out. And while none of them mentioned actually being told to pay, they were all quite clear that many of them had in fact paid because at the beginning of the struggle their line was that non-payment couldn't work. The example you mention in England would of course have been much later, because the tax was first implemented in Scotland, and by that stage the SWP had no choice but to fall in behind non-payment.
By the way the SWP made very similar mistakes here in Ireland a little later on. It all but ignored the anti-water tax campaign in Dublin in the mid-1990s, something they've regretted ever since as it laid the basis for the Socialist Party's expansion and minor electoral breakthrough. They did pay some attention to the anti-bin tax campaign, but when the chips were down they again bottled it on community action in favour of abstract calls for the bin workers to take strike action. Some people never learn I suppose.
By the way the SWP made very similar mistakes here in Ireland a little later on. It all but ignored the anti-water tax campaign in Dublin in the mid-1990s, something they've regretted ever since as it laid the basis for the Socialist Party's expansion and minor electoral breakthrough. They did pay some attention to the anti-bin tax campaign, but when the chips were down they again bottled it on community action in favour of abstract calls for the bin workers to take strike action. Some people never learn I suppose.
dennisr
the acceptable face
Grego Morales said:
What usually happens is it eventually becomes an 'everyone piles in on the SWP' thread and the original discussion is buried after one of the more inaine SWP members starts posting bollocks in an attempt to slander some other group that individual feels threatened by...
oppps, too late....
dennisr
the acceptable face
nwnm said:
How very original. One would expect this sort of slander being repeated (for the 100th time) by someone with either a very crude misunderstanding if events or genuine desire to distort what actually happened. Which is it with you i wonder? How low in the dirt can you go nwmn?
So whats it like working with the 'copper's nark' sheridan in scotland, and having the 'copper's nark' sheridan on your respect platform's? - bit of a kettle/pot situation again i think.
And have you told him he's a nark to his face ... go on i dare you, you brave wee anonymous internet 'class warrior' you. You can then find out exactly how serious an accusation like that is taken.
Grego Morales
New Member
1.Oh, well that proves it then.
That means the SWP where completely responsible for holding and organising the STW protests which were, as you put it in from your rather sweet old-fashioned lexicon...2..."Anti-Imperialist protests". Semantics perhaps, but many would disagree. That's why the SWP are so unpopular, don't you see? You're constantly hyping up your own history. They weren't just stop the war in Iraq marches any more
they were "Anti-Imperialist Demonstrations Organised By The SWP".
It's embarressing, don't you realise? This kind of nonsense (and irrelevant arguments of which I have now been tempted to join *hits himself in the face* is what's kept the far left stuck in the 1960's for so long.
"That means the SWP where completely responsible for holding and organising the STW protests " Where do I argue this? Dennisr claimed that the SWP had been 'found wanting' compared to his organisation in relation to building mass movements. So I compared the STWC to the ABAPTF. (on the basis that both organisations played similar roles in these)
"Anti-Imperialist protests. Semantics perhaps, but many would disagree" so how would you describe them? (genuine question - not snide remark)
"So whats it like working with the 'copper's nark' sheridan in scotland?" Who the hell mentioned Tommy Sheridan? The 'coppers Nark' tag was aimed at your very own Steve Nally. To 'invent' that one I would have had to hijack a TV studio, as he appeared on ITN news on Sat 31st March and (distancing himself from those fighting back rather than criticising the police for attacking the demo) said "These people are nothing to do with the Poll Tax they are just against the police" when asked if he would be prepared to help the police identify rioters he said "I would be prepared to name names". (Sheridan actually said nothing of the sort, but described the violence as regrettable and in stark contrast to the demonstration in Scotland on the same day.)
"Oh dear, nwnm, you tried to rewrite history yourself there and walked right into... someone who was in the SWP at the time and knows that you are talking bollocks." Actually I was quoting from the editorial of SW from the 31st March 1990. I still have the paper (and yours btw). Its a bit difficult to rewrite whats already written.
"Anti-Imperialist protests. Semantics perhaps, but many would disagree" so how would you describe them? (genuine question - not snide remark)
"So whats it like working with the 'copper's nark' sheridan in scotland?" Who the hell mentioned Tommy Sheridan? The 'coppers Nark' tag was aimed at your very own Steve Nally. To 'invent' that one I would have had to hijack a TV studio, as he appeared on ITN news on Sat 31st March and (distancing himself from those fighting back rather than criticising the police for attacking the demo) said "These people are nothing to do with the Poll Tax they are just against the police" when asked if he would be prepared to help the police identify rioters he said "I would be prepared to name names". (Sheridan actually said nothing of the sort, but described the violence as regrettable and in stark contrast to the demonstration in Scotland on the same day.)
"Oh dear, nwnm, you tried to rewrite history yourself there and walked right into... someone who was in the SWP at the time and knows that you are talking bollocks." Actually I was quoting from the editorial of SW from the 31st March 1990. I still have the paper (and yours btw). Its a bit difficult to rewrite whats already written.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
where? I see no quote?nwnm said:
You were (at least half) right that the militant had to be pushed into calling another demo - specifically to defend those arrested on the first demo - but all the pickets of courts, local councils etc was still going on apace anyway.
Grego Morales
New Member
My point is that the STW protests-and by this I mainly mean the huge Feb 2003 demo- were far too big and varied to be called "anti-imperialist". You can't project any wider meaning on the demo other than it was a strong message of NO TO THE WAR. Whether the war was imperialist or not is irrelevent. If you think it was then great, you're probably right. But don't assume everyone else thinks the same just because they were on the same demo and bought your newspaper.
We're way off topic here. The CNWP then. What happens next? I'm not involved in trade union work or any community campaign. Does this mean I can't have a say in how the potential party is run?
Grego Morales
New Member
My hope is that this party will do away with the orthodoxy and ridgid ideologies that have blighted the far left for so long.
Where does Troskyism and Marxism fit into this new workers party? Will any central committee insist upon members learning about Karl and Leon, as the SP do now?
Where does Troskyism and Marxism fit into this new workers party? Will any central committee insist upon members learning about Karl and Leon, as the SP do now?
"My point is that the STW protests-and by this I mainly mean the huge Feb 2003 demo- were far too big and varied to be called "anti-imperialist". You can't project any wider meaning on the demo other than it was a strong message of NO TO THE WAR. "
I kind of agree with you on this (although I would also add that quite a large number on the 2003 demo would have thought of it in terms of a protest against imperialism as well). I think what has happened since then, is that this anti imperialist mood has crystalised/hardened within the movement, partially due to the way the war has unfolded, (exposing both the brutality and the cynicism of the US/UK), but also because a growing politicisation of people in general. We now seem to be living in an era of mass protests. 10 years ago demonstrations in this country of 100,000 or more were as rare as rocking horse shit - now they are not only common place but co-ordinated across national borders too
I kind of agree with you on this (although I would also add that quite a large number on the 2003 demo would have thought of it in terms of a protest against imperialism as well). I think what has happened since then, is that this anti imperialist mood has crystalised/hardened within the movement, partially due to the way the war has unfolded, (exposing both the brutality and the cynicism of the US/UK), but also because a growing politicisation of people in general. We now seem to be living in an era of mass protests. 10 years ago demonstrations in this country of 100,000 or more were as rare as rocking horse shit - now they are not only common place but co-ordinated across national borders too
Grego Morales
New Member
nwnm said:
Yes, I'd agree with most of this. It's certainly an interesting topic, but for another thread I think!
Let's get back to the CNWP.
Where does Troskyism and Marxism fit into this new workers party? Will any central committee insist upon members learning about Karl and Leon, as the SP do now?[/QUOTE]
Where do you get your information from ?. there has never been any insistence upon members to read or study anything. the SP progremme is based on the ideas of marxism applied to the current era therefore anyone joining such a party would be compelled to study the method and history of class struggle poltics.
In the case of the CNWP we are condemned from the likes of the CPGB for not insisting on a revolutionary marxist programme from the outset and for being "reformist" the SP has stated we would argue for a clear socialist clause in the programme of a new party. But this would not be a pre condition to our participation in such a party if it was clearly anti-cuts and anti-privatisation and involved important sections of the working class.
Where do you get your information from ?. there has never been any insistence upon members to read or study anything. the SP progremme is based on the ideas of marxism applied to the current era therefore anyone joining such a party would be compelled to study the method and history of class struggle poltics.
In the case of the CNWP we are condemned from the likes of the CPGB for not insisting on a revolutionary marxist programme from the outset and for being "reformist" the SP has stated we would argue for a clear socialist clause in the programme of a new party. But this would not be a pre condition to our participation in such a party if it was clearly anti-cuts and anti-privatisation and involved important sections of the working class.
Grego Morales
New Member
Okay, "insist" was a bit too strong a word perhaps. But your members are certainly encouraged to learn the theory of dead communists. There's nothing wrong with that per se, but it I think this whole culture of Marxist theory is a bit of a dead end.
Soul On Ice
Well-Known Member
Grego Morales said:
Not a chance. Rigid ideologies are in the DNA of far left groups.
The ideologies are akin to a theology - a set of almost spiritual beliefs. Until the far left can break the addiction to debating ideological purity amongst itself it is doomed to be consigned to the margins of any popular political process.
The ideologies are akin to a theology - a set of almost spiritual beliefs. Until the far left can break the addiction to debating ideological purity amongst itself it is doomed to be consigned to the margins of any popular political process.[/QUOTE]
I think you miss the whole point of CNWP if the SP wanted to orientate to the existing far left it would be calling for a socialist alliance mk2, Marxism is about a method not a set of theories set in stone there are many examples in history to learn from but that does not mean repeating the mistakes of the past or attempting to apply certain texts to the present day situation.
I think you miss the whole point of CNWP if the SP wanted to orientate to the existing far left it would be calling for a socialist alliance mk2, Marxism is about a method not a set of theories set in stone there are many examples in history to learn from but that does not mean repeating the mistakes of the past or attempting to apply certain texts to the present day situation.
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