Campaign for a New Workers Party
- Thread starter Philbc03
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belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
so, you withdrew your kmotin, so you had no 'right' to a speaker. I dont care what motions you carried at your own wee conference they have no bearing on a seperate initiative. Yes, of course getting youth into any new party would be vital, but the role of one teeny tiny youth organisation in that is peripheral. Sorry, but the ISR is all but irrelevant.socialistsuzy said:
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
good - I hope you'll join me in objecting if any more literature is produced with that 8 point mini-programme then.dennisr said:
Whether any of the people attending on sunday were representing more than their membership of the SP I dont know - after all everyone was there as an individual not a delegate. So whilst they have got some wider 'credibility' and influence - I didnt see any evidence of it.
really? I'd ask you to re-read my previous contributions then (yes, all 13,000 of them). I would make no such objections at all, unless you were only targetting union leaders and not rank and file members. Very clearly not the case here.
my crystal ball tells me.........that a decent clue would be in what other forces you could get involved. If it is just the same old same old - probably a bad time. I doubt it can get anywhere really whilst Respect is still around, which it will be for a while, we'll have to wait till after may to really get an idea of how long they might be. But whilst they are here, chances for a new formation are close to zero.
Respect did actually launch themselves at the right time, imo. Altho obviously I think their policies and internal organisation are crap, they did make best use of timing to set themeselves up - they came out of something very real, and drew together many of the forces involved in a real campaign, the stop the war movement. The nature of that campaign clearly led into the nature of Respect. Hopefully when there is next a mass workers struggle, we will be able to set up a workers party.
nah, but i wont be running around like a blue arsed fly either. Might not have been as bad as I originally painted it, but it wasnt as good as others did either.
trainspotter
New Member
The only thing I have seen crack the Labour stranglehold where I live is iindependent Labour/real Labour candidates.
Whether that's still a realistic proposition, I don't know.
Whether that's still a realistic proposition, I don't know.
dennisr
the acceptable face
belboid said:
this bit makes a lot of good sense - the reason for qouting it specifically. The CNWP is a longer term attempt to position ourselves in the right place for the right time - I don't think any of us will have to kill ourselves trying to breathe life into it in the short term but respect is not the deciding factor. It is an attempt to avoid the mistakes made with respect. Yes, I think the may election results will be a factor (maybe more so for some of those left leaning tu bureaucrats - the faces) but not as decisive as new workers movements. One major opening is the local government action that is taking place - we have to see how that pans out.
dennisr
the acceptable face
trainspotter said:
It has happened in a number of places - but not that many i am afraid. Some of the best were those who then got involved in the original Socialist Alliances. I wonder if there are that many decent labour councillors left. Two recent ex-labout councillors have just joined the SP in Stoke. It will be grand if the one up for re-election in may get in - especially given the BNP vote in the area.
ihateblair
New Member
belboid said:
Hardly, what other decent size activist youth organisations are there apart from Revolution and ISR? Young people have no illusions in Labour, weak and sometimes no illusions in reformism, and should be very easy recruit to socialist groups in this age of 'the war on terror' and neo-liberalism.
I predict ISR and Revolution will be able to grow massively out of the CNWP, and through inventive campaigns, we attract many young people to the project.
trainspotter
New Member
I did think at one time that the Greens might have been able to move onto the ground where the old mainstream Labour left was & attract the younger more idealistic lot that would once have joined the young socialists/communists but if it's happening, it's not got here yet.
socialistsuzy
New Member
ISR has been doing great work within trade unions, schools, etc. on low pay, against the war, academies etc. we have local profiles as well as a national one on all the demos, we have been recruiting heavily. we asked for a speaker at the conference and were granted one, how would they have been able to deny any youth that wanted to speak? we agreed to cancel them because of lack of time.
". No politics just inuendo and cheap jibes that do nothing to raise anybodies understanding - either for or against." A bit like your comrades comments on all the RESPECT threads eh?
"After decades of 'ultra-left' idiocy people like you are finally being exposed by events when you finaly have some influence in the situation - the other side of the coin for such ra-ra-revolutionaries - a bunch of shouty, patronising, liberals with no confidence or trust in working class people." Sorry, wasn't that you lot after the Poll Tax riot in 1990; with 'gobshite' Steve Nally threatening to 'name names' to the police live on the TV news afterwards? Exactly how much confidence or trust in the working class did your lot show when they fought back after being attacked by the police? Fuck all! Oh, and unlike your lot we actually defended other groups like the Class War spokesman who was whitch hunted for describing the rioters as "Working class heros". Compare that to the stop the war demo when Bush came to town. The police tried to impose a route which would have allowed him the freedom of the city and were told to piss off. Effectively Bush ended up stuck under house arrest with her Maj for company. Yeah some groups have been tested alright....
"You do know you come across as the most odious SWP gobshite posting on these boards don't you nwnm?" you must be my opposite number in the SP then, or are you only making plans for Nigel (the irritable one)?
Oh, and BTW if you look hard enough on this site, you'll see that I've actually defended your organisations record against other RESPECT supporter Fishers Gate in a discussion about Liverpool's Real Labour candidate - not bad for an SWP drone....
"After decades of 'ultra-left' idiocy people like you are finally being exposed by events when you finaly have some influence in the situation - the other side of the coin for such ra-ra-revolutionaries - a bunch of shouty, patronising, liberals with no confidence or trust in working class people." Sorry, wasn't that you lot after the Poll Tax riot in 1990; with 'gobshite' Steve Nally threatening to 'name names' to the police live on the TV news afterwards? Exactly how much confidence or trust in the working class did your lot show when they fought back after being attacked by the police? Fuck all! Oh, and unlike your lot we actually defended other groups like the Class War spokesman who was whitch hunted for describing the rioters as "Working class heros". Compare that to the stop the war demo when Bush came to town. The police tried to impose a route which would have allowed him the freedom of the city and were told to piss off. Effectively Bush ended up stuck under house arrest with her Maj for company. Yeah some groups have been tested alright....
"You do know you come across as the most odious SWP gobshite posting on these boards don't you nwnm?" you must be my opposite number in the SP then, or are you only making plans for Nigel (the irritable one)?
Oh, and BTW if you look hard enough on this site, you'll see that I've actually defended your organisations record against other RESPECT supporter Fishers Gate in a discussion about Liverpool's Real Labour candidate - not bad for an SWP drone....
actually it merged with SWSS (so the initials can also be Socialist Worker Schoolstudents Society). Works OK in some 6th form colleges - most school students just join the SWP as individuals and either go to local branch meetings or college meetings as the mood takes them......
I'm sure there have been some RESPECT work with school students as well, not any major national push on it at the mo....
I'm sure there have been some RESPECT work with school students as well, not any major national push on it at the mo....
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
belboid said:
There are actually six SP councillors and five Respect councillors at last count. There is also the Wigan-based Community Action Party - which won 18 seats in 2004 and will be defending some this May. There are a few independent left-wingers around, including two councillors in Preston. I doubt that you could count the IWCA in this tally.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
I was only including those actually elected under that banner - so I should have knocked one of Respect and given it to the Socialist Alliance really, but I'm in a genberous mood.
'independent' types had been covered by the post I was replying to, and if you are going to include the Community Action Party (for which there is a fair argument, tho not all have been elected under that banner) then to exclude the IWCA is beyond absurd.
'independent' types had been covered by the post I was replying to, and if you are going to include the Community Action Party (for which there is a fair argument, tho not all have been elected under that banner) then to exclude the IWCA is beyond absurd.
dennisr
the acceptable face
nwnm said:
You can re-write what really happened all you like (it is one of the other traits you are so good at) - and i really cannot be bothered giving your distortions the time of day. As usual your only role is to attempt to inflict damage by distortion and lies. On these boards alone I have answered these questions five or six times (always bought up by one so-called 'trotskyite' or another) - more importantly we have worked closely (added: 'since then' I should have included here so the sentance makes sense...) on a number of occasions with some of the very same anarchists who raised this back then - despite our differences - that is something the SWP will never be trusted to do.
Just leave you with one thing - the poll tax was defeated (despite organisations such as yours, the ones without a clue, being told to pay it by your leadership because "the can't pay, won't pay campaign could not work"....) - have you stoped the war yet given your 'testing'? Your organisation could not fight its way out of a paper bag.
you remain an odious, sectarian with nothing constructive to say.
I worked with Militant members and anarchists in the early 90s on anti fascist stuff,including chasing the BNP off Brick Lane. They were MILES better than the SWP and most of my anarcho mates despite serious misgivings in the beginining would say the same thing too.
The SWP on the Poll tax told their members to pay it..... As there was nothing left in the campaign for them ... About 6 months before the big riot!
The SWP on the Poll tax told their members to pay it..... As there was nothing left in the campaign for them ... About 6 months before the big riot!
dennisr
the acceptable face
soulman said:Embrace the iwca, marxists looking for a new home. Then go away with your outdated, lazy posturing.
actually its called giving credit where it is due, something you don't seem capable of. The IWCA have put up a marker in opposition to the 'establishment' - that is a good thing, and is simply being recognised in belbiods comment.
I think your one-liners are a bit short on content and are therefore a bit pointless.
nightbreed
Im Bored
Macullam said:
I notice that during this report it seems there was no discussion on how affiliated organisations would vote; for example what weight affiliated organisations such as trade unions would have during internal elections.This really is an important issue because influence in a workers party should represent membership in an affiliated organisations and not the individual views of the delegate (unless they are clearly mandated , which should be reflected in the rules)
As an aside, why have the most militant unions of recent times , the FBU and the RMT , since dissafiliating or being kicked out of the Labour Party, not affiliated with either the CNWP or Respect?
They have affiliated to the Labour Representation Ctte though , which according to the SP represents nothing with its 500 membership.
"actually, the SW on the day of the riotous demo said that non-payment was failing in Scotland!" Only if you read it second hand in Militant! They chopped that bit out of an editorial and tried to use it to discredit us.... (I think its called distorting history Den...) The editorial actually stated that passive non - payment alone could leave people feeling isolated, and called for more protests demonstrations, pickets of poll tax courts etc. BTW if the SWP 'told' their members to pay their poll tax, how come the first person to face the magistrates courts in England was an SWP member, how come around the same time Terry Fields got sent to prison for non-payment, so did SWP member Beccy Palmer? Answers on a post card please.....
Den we haven't stopped the War yet - but holding some of the largest anti imperialist protests recorded in the UK is nothing to be sniffed at. Are you lot still prepared to be coppers narks when things go pear shaped?
Den we haven't stopped the War yet - but holding some of the largest anti imperialist protests recorded in the UK is nothing to be sniffed at. Are you lot still prepared to be coppers narks when things go pear shaped?
Grego Morales
New Member
nwnm said:
Hello. This is turning into another SP/SWP sect battle. Boorring. But anyway...Two questions.
1. Are you saying that it was the SWP that held the STW demos?
2. How where they anti-imperialist protests?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
not really, it was written just like that in sw as the SWP (which I had recently rejoined at the time) was trying to argue that it was not non-payment by ordinary bods that was the key, rather it would be action by the poll tax workers themselves, refusing to implement it, that was crucial.
Now obviously everyone would probably agree that such action would be a more certain and effective method, bit it was never ever really on the cards. It was, in retrospect, a position held to distinguish the SWP from Militant. Lets not forget how the CC had already threatened to expel Scottish members who had ignored the instruction not to join APTU's (something which didnt actually happen as the Scottish comrades managed to convince the CC they were being fucking mad).
The additional activities nwnm mentions were already happening anyway, they were not the brave and bold suggestions of the SWP, nor were they the justification for selling short the non-payment campaign in Scotland.
Now obviously everyone would probably agree that such action would be a more certain and effective method, bit it was never ever really on the cards. It was, in retrospect, a position held to distinguish the SWP from Militant. Lets not forget how the CC had already threatened to expel Scottish members who had ignored the instruction not to join APTU's (something which didnt actually happen as the Scottish comrades managed to convince the CC they were being fucking mad).
The additional activities nwnm mentions were already happening anyway, they were not the brave and bold suggestions of the SWP, nor were they the justification for selling short the non-payment campaign in Scotland.
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