urbanrevolt
New Member
Actually I think there is a fair amount of agreement here and the debate on the whole has been useful- hope you feel likewise!
When you say "that the question of the need for an independant political voice - which we (as in working class people) clearly do not have even in a distorted form any more)" I think you are exaggerating in one sense.
Yes it is clear to us that the Labour Party is not a workers' party in its politics- it is a bourgeois party and many workers are very alienated from these politics- privatisation, imperialist and illegal war, NHS cuts etc. But also clearly the majority of the organised working class has not yet broken from Labour- Labour is still a workers' party in terms of support.
More importantly, though, i think the SP is in danger of peddling a kind of reformism- at least by not being explicit enough. It's not a question of counting the number of times 'revolution' appears on the website (I almost feel like doing that but I'll resist the temptation) but of what we argue in the class.
If you are saying that in approaching workers' organisations such as campaign groups, unions or other organisations for candidates in the election or a campaign for a new working class party that the program and policies should be decided by mass meetings then I have a lot of sympathy with that point. However, we as revolutionaries should be very clear why we think socialism does not come through parliament and that socialism if it is ever to mean anything means organising in democratic councils of action, militant class stuggle and ruthless defence against capitalist attack up to and including the insurrection- even when socialists win a majority either in parliament (the bourgeois would probably close it down first) or workers' councils or whatever forms of struggle are thrown up that would be a necessaty but far from sufficient condition for socialism.
The working class , will need to take direct action to expropriate the capitalists who steal our labour and our wealth (expropriate the expropriators) and will need to defend our power- arms in hand.
Unless we are clear on that we are peddling an illusion, one that can be fatefully dangerous - Chile of course being an essneital case study
When you say "that the question of the need for an independant political voice - which we (as in working class people) clearly do not have even in a distorted form any more)" I think you are exaggerating in one sense.
Yes it is clear to us that the Labour Party is not a workers' party in its politics- it is a bourgeois party and many workers are very alienated from these politics- privatisation, imperialist and illegal war, NHS cuts etc. But also clearly the majority of the organised working class has not yet broken from Labour- Labour is still a workers' party in terms of support.
More importantly, though, i think the SP is in danger of peddling a kind of reformism- at least by not being explicit enough. It's not a question of counting the number of times 'revolution' appears on the website (I almost feel like doing that but I'll resist the temptation) but of what we argue in the class.
If you are saying that in approaching workers' organisations such as campaign groups, unions or other organisations for candidates in the election or a campaign for a new working class party that the program and policies should be decided by mass meetings then I have a lot of sympathy with that point. However, we as revolutionaries should be very clear why we think socialism does not come through parliament and that socialism if it is ever to mean anything means organising in democratic councils of action, militant class stuggle and ruthless defence against capitalist attack up to and including the insurrection- even when socialists win a majority either in parliament (the bourgeois would probably close it down first) or workers' councils or whatever forms of struggle are thrown up that would be a necessaty but far from sufficient condition for socialism.
The working class , will need to take direct action to expropriate the capitalists who steal our labour and our wealth (expropriate the expropriators) and will need to defend our power- arms in hand.
Unless we are clear on that we are peddling an illusion, one that can be fatefully dangerous - Chile of course being an essneital case study
