Campaign for a New Workers Party

[cockneyrebel]

Looking at the report I don't get this:

VICE CHAIRS – Gerry Byrne; Jeremy Dewar (workers power); Clara Pyard

Richard Brenner (one of Workers Powers leaders), said that WP were gonna leave the CNWP if the SP resolutions got passed. Which they did. In fact out of the 350 people there I think about 8-10 voted for WPs resolution. Not that surprising given the dominance of the SP but still.

 

[Das Uberdog]

What do you mean by the right way? RESPECTs politics haven't shifted to the left.

But yeah of course RESPECT has been more electorally successful, but as I've said before what is the long term aim? To create another old labour type organisation. Great.

I would argue that with the establishment of new branches accross the country, Respect is getting more leftwing. Certainly in terms of what our celebrities are saying (perhaps more explicitly in Preston) I also think we're on route to becoming more explicitly socialist too.

 

[cockneyrebel]

CHAIR – Dave Nellist (Socialist Party)

VICE CHAIRS – Gerry Byrne (AWL/Socialist Alliance); Jeremy Dewar (Workers Power); Clara Pyard (Independent)

SECRETARY – Roger Bannister (Socialist Party)

ASSISTANT SECRETARY – Hannah Sell (Socialist Party)

TREASURER – Greg Maughan (Socialist Party)

TRADE UNION OFFICERS – Glen Kelly (Socialist Party); Terry Pierce (Socialist Alliance)

OFFICER FOR WALES – Andrew Price (Socialist Party)

YOUTH OFFICER – Tracy Edwards (Socialist Party)

COMMUNITY OFFICER – Mel Mills (Independent)

PRESS OFFICER – Pete McLaren (Sociaist Alliance)

Also not being bad but the above shows how far the campaign has got to go before breaking out of the left ghetto. Also how can a smaller conference than the first one a year ago with less independents there be called a success? Don't mean to be negative but at the same time people have got to face reality.

 

[cockneyrebel]

I would argue that with the establishment of new branches accross the country, Respect is getting more leftwing. Certainly in terms of what our celebrities are saying (perhaps more explicitly in Preston) I also think we're on route to becoming more explicitly socialist too.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. But as said where do you see all this going? RESPECT is a left reformist organisation. As a revolutionary what do you see as the longer term strategy?

 

[Tom A]

One thing that can be said about Respect, it is more than just the SWP (even if quite a lot of that "more than" has dodgy leftwing credentials - but that can be said about the SWP!). In its current state, I identify the CNWP as essentially a Socialist Party thing.

 

[fanciful]

I saw a Respect councillor at the Climate Change event, from Tower Hamlets, and I'm sure she was sincere, but she wasn't even close to being a socialist. I'd say a sort of radical liberal, not even an anti-capitalist, of course at one level you can't blame her, she was only young and that's what she's been taught by Respect, but I was shocked about how right wing Respect were - and how right wing the SWP have become - in fact they make the SP look left, amazing.

 

[belboid]

how many people have now sigend the declaration?

350 in attendance at the conference, is that right?

 

[cockneyrebel]

350 in attendance at the conference, is that right?

350 tops to be honest (350 is the figure the CNWP website claims and that was my upper limit figure). The last conference was reported as 450 if I remember rightly.

According to the website 2500 people have signed up. Not great considering the last conference set a target of 5,000 supporting signatures by the end of the year.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

350 in attendance at the conference, is that right?

I don't know. I would assume that cr is understating the attendance for sectarian reasons, but can't be sure until I see a report from someone more reliable.

 

[In Bloom]

I don't know. I would assume that cr is understating the attendance for sectarian reasons, but can't be sure until I see a report from someone more reliable.

http://www.cnwp.org.uk/

The second conference of the Campaign for a New Workers’ Party (CNWP) took place on Saturday 12 May. The conference was highly successful and a central London hall was packed out with over 350 people united in their desire to develop the campaign further.

 

[cockneyrebel]

I don't know. I would assume that cr is understating the attendance for sectarian reasons, but can't be sure until I see a report from someone more reliable.

For fucks sake Nigel, I know you're desperate to throw around the word sectarian at every chance possible but the figure is put up on the CNWP website itself.....unless I hacked into the website and changed the number

Indeed I put up the figure of 350 before the CNWP website did, so I was hardly "understating the attendence" was I.

 

[belboid]

conference no bigger than last years, hardly anyone signed up who didnt do so immediately, it does sound like despite the objective need for a new workers party, there is no great mood out there for one. Or at least not as proposed by the CNWP.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

...in fact they make the SP look left, amazing.

This is the same SP from whom a councillor joined the LibDems last year, and who called for a vote for a LibDem pro-privatisation council leader in a trade union election last month? Very left ...

 

[belboid]

loose hangers on of the IMG have always stayed resolutely left tho, haven't they FG?

 

[Fisher_Gate]

loose hangers on of the IMG have always stayed resolutely left tho, haven't they FG?

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones was precisely the point I was trying to make...

It was said with heavy irony, though I must admit switching to LibDems or calling for a vote for LibDem supporters does stretch the definition of 'left' in my mind; and I do easily tire of the SP's 'prolier than thou' attitude, especially after putting up with their numerous surrenders in the Labour Party over two decades.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

This is the same SP from whom a councillor joined the LibDems last year

No actually, you must be thinking of some other SP. The councillor who briefly joined us (claiming by the way to be a revolutionary socialist) now sits as an independent, loosely allied in some way with the Lib Dems. In any case I'm not sure what kind of point you are trying to make - people who have been in socialist organisations regularly end up scattered all over the political spectrum, even people who've been members for much longer than a few months.

and who called for a vote for a LibDem pro-privatisation council leader in a trade union election last month?

The PCS Democrats were the minor allies of the Left Unity majority in PCS, and the basis of that alliance is that the people they put forward accept conference decisions and have signed up to the dispute with the government. If some oddball can reconcile that within the union with being a Lib Dem councillor out of it, well that's his contradiction not ours.

The irony of the above being that the individual concerned stood as part of the same alliance last year... and was therefore supported by the AWL/ISG/PR/CPGB etc. What a difference a year makes!

I do easily tire of the SP's 'prolier than thou' attitude

Well yes, I can see why a consistent orientation towards the working class would seem tiresome to a supporter of Respect, the SWP or USFI.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

...

Well yes, I can see why a consistent orientation towards the working class would seem tiresome to a supporter of Respect, the SWP or USFI.

Case proven.

No-one else is as remotely consistent in their orientation towards the working class as the SP are they Nigel? What a shame the rest of the so-called left in the world are such a shower ... still it's good that at least we have a small albeit dwindling band of followers to uphold the red flag, eh?

 

[Fisher_Gate]

No actually, you must be thinking of some other SP. The councillor who briefly joined us (claiming by the way to be a revolutionary socialist) now sits as an independent, loosely allied in some way with the Lib Dems. ....

For the record, he doesn't actually "sit" anywhere these days - well not in the way you meant.

 

[belboid]

any comment on the failure of the campaign to reach its target sign up figure nigel?

I know pointing out FG's daftness is more fun, but...

 

[Das Uberdog]

I saw a Respect councillor at the Climate Change event, from Tower Hamlets, and I'm sure she was sincere, but she wasn't even close to being a socialist. I'd say a sort of radical liberal, not even an anti-capitalist, of course at one level you can't blame her, she was only young and that's what she's been taught by Respect, but I was shocked about how right wing Respect were - and how right wing the SWP have become - in fact they make the SP look left, amazing.

The SWP isn't right-wing, it's the same as it's ever been. Unless you're confusing 'viciously dogmatic' with right-wing which sectos seem to be able to achieve marvellously. On that level, I would agree, however, that there is a tendency amongst some of the more 'hackerised' members to become completely brutalised to organisational inhumanities, such as ringing me up mid-week, demanding I have some kind of no-hope stall at college in the middle of my exams.

But that's besides the point, because even if we do have members who've organised so many events they don't know how to talk in real speak anymore, I'd like for you to justify your statement that the SWP is any more 'right-wing' than it ever was, or infact, moreso than other left groups with some substantial evidence of theory/practice - as I assume we're talking about right/left in terms of the economic goals of my organisation? Or is this about a specific political grievance? Maybe a few? Because to be honest me bucko, that's emabrassingly un-anything-to-do with where we lie in the political spectrum most of the time.

e.g. It's perfectly leftwing to work with Muslims as one of the most oppressed groups in society.

 

[belboid]

a simple look at Respect dshows how the SWP have moved to the right. Positions castigated by them when adopted by other organisations are now proudly moved by leading SWP members (immigraton controls, onarchy to name but two). And yet you pretend Respect is 'socialist'. Were you (qua SWP member) lying when you said the SLP wasn't socialist for not calling for no immigration controls, or are you lying now?

Your eg is your (and that is personal , not qua SWP member) typical lie pretending that anyone not supporting Respect 'doesnt want to work with muslims'

 

[cockneyrebel]

The SWP isn't right-wing, it's the same as it's ever been.

To be fair this isn't true. I really can't imagine the SWP under Cliff going down the RESPECT route. The SWP is clearly to the right of what it was 10 or even 5 years ago.

Bucko?!

It's perfectly leftwing to work with Muslims as one of the most oppressed groups in society.

Where did that come from

 

[cockneyrebel]

Positions castigated by them when adopted by other organisations are now proudly moved by leading SWP members (immigraton controls, monarchy to name but two).

And you can add a workers wage and abortion to that as well. And some positions, like immigration controls, they slammed other groups in the Socialist Alliance for voting down (ironically the SP for one).

 

[Fisher_Gate]

...
I know pointing out FG's daftness is more fun, but...

I'm just winding him up really - it's like a dog chasing a stick, I throw it, he instinctively brings it back

I'm really quite a non-sectarian sectarian in the pablo mould, in favour of everyone getting together and burying their differences cos they don't really amount to that much ... (or maybe that should be 'liquidating' their differences lol)

 

[Das Uberdog]

a simple look at Respect dshows how the SWP have moved to the right. Positions castigated by them when adopted by other organisations are now proudly moved by leading SWP members (immigraton controls, onarchy to name but two). And yet you pretend Respect is 'socialist'. Were you (qua SWP member) lying when you said the SLP wasn't socialist for not calling for no immigration controls, or are you lying now?

Your eg is your (and that is personal , not qua SWP member) typical lie pretending that anyone not supporting Respect 'doesnt want to work with muslims'

wtf? The SWP wouldn't have supported a Party like Respect 10 years ago because it was still SWP policy at the time to invest energy into the Labour Party! Do you understand the SWPs theoretical justification for being a member of the coalition? We saw the opportunity to join into an anti-war, reformist leftwing Party when Galloway and Salma Yaqoob got together to form the Respect coalition, on the basis that the existance of a reformist Party with an explicitly socialist basis strengthens the left as a whole. Were we stronger as 'the left' when we could pursue our campaigns under the umberella of the 'Labour Movement', and with the general or at least vague support of a large parliamentary party? This is the SWPs reasoning towards the organisation. When it ceases to become an asset to the revolutionary cause, it will be ditched - and we will look for the next opportunity to stir up dissent within society.

As regards to immigration controls, even the Respect constitution stipulates that we are opposed to barriers between nations. There is *dissent* upon important issues within the SWP you know! Just quite an effective public method of democratic centralism, too. With regards to your quote, I actually haven't heard anything about it (which perhaps suggests some of it's importance to SWP theory...?) it's context, or anything else to be honest.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

wtf? The SWP wouldn't have supported a Party like Respect 10 years ago because it was still SWP policy at the time to invest energy into the Labour Party! ...

I'm afraid I blinked and missed the SWP's investment of energy in the Labour Party during my 25 years in it. Do enlighten us about what it involved that was so time consuming?

 

[Fisher_Gate]

... We saw the opportunity to join into an anti-war, reformist leftwing Party when Galloway and Salma Yaqoob got together to form the Respect coalition, on the basis that the existance of a reformist Party with an explicitly socialist basis strengthens the left as a whole. ....

I think you will find it was Alan Thornett of the ISG who first proposed in a resolution in 2003 that the Socialist Alliance look to develop and participate in a new coalition with the reformist left. The SWP was a bit tied up investing energy forging cheques in the SA office, but came on board with enthusiasm.

Never mind let the myths carry on ... you're only young, you'll learn everything is not so black and white.

 

[selamlar]

The SWP wouldn't have supported a Party like Respect 10 years ago because it was still SWP policy at the time to invest energy into the Labour Party

Well, it depends what you mean by 'investing energy' really. There certainly was no enterism or any contact of that sort between the SWP and the Labour Party in this time period. There was a recognition that (at that time) the Labour Party still had within it a large number of left wing and working class elements, but that is a different issue.

The SWP was a bit tied up investing energy forging cheques in the SA office, but came on board with enthusiasm.

Never mind let the myths carry on ... you're only young, you'll learn everything is not so black and white.

And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself:

 

[belboid]

wtf? The SWP wouldn't have supported a Party like Respect 10 years ago because it was still SWP policy at the time to invest energy into the Labour Party!

what? are you comepletely off your head

Do you understand the SWPs theoretical justification for being a member of the coalition? blahblahblahbollocks

As regards to immigration controls, even the Respect constitution stipulates that we are opposed to barriers between nations. There is *dissent* upon important issues within the SWP you know! Just quite an effective public method of democratic centralism, too. With regards to your quote, I actually haven't heard anything about it (which perhaps suggests some of it's importance to SWP theory...?) it's context, or anything else to be honest.

no answers to anything i actually asked, just a load of pointless waffle.

 

[belboid]

I think you will find it was Alan Thornett of the ISG who first proposed in a resolution in 2003 that the Socialist Alliance look to develop and participate in a new coalition with the reformist left. The SWP was a bit tied up investing energy forging cheques in the SA office, but came on board with enthusiasm.

Never mind let the myths carry on ... you're only young, you'll learn everything is not so black and white.

the swp had been trying to forge an alliance with the CPB and with whatever Galloway could bring along even before that.