Campaign for a cinema in Crystal Palace

Discussion in 'London and the South East' started by Guineveretoo, Oct 18, 2009.

  1. JFirewall

    JFirewall New Member

    It can only really be aimed at Palace residents.

    Going to be something like Picturehouse isn't it.

    Palace is still a lot less trendy than Greenwich (not wishing to put anyone down). But the majority of people in the area i.e. the youths, would still prefer to go in to Croydon.
  2. Guineveretoo

    Guineveretoo Mostly bewildered

    I live half way between this site in Crystal Palace, and central Croydon. I never go to the cinema in Croydon, because I don't like going out in central Croydon. Occasionally (the last time was about 5 years ago, I go to the one near Ikea). There used to be an independent cinema near West Croydon, run by Safari, which I went to, but that was knocked down.

    My daughter and her boyfriend, who live nearer to the proposed cinema than I do, usually go to the Ritzy in Brixton when they go to the cinema. So, they go past that site to get there, and they usually drive, because you can't get from where we live to Brixton on one bus.

    You might be right about the market not being able to bear it, but the attendance at the public meetings (several hundred), and the number of names on the petitions (7000, I think), and the number of people who wrote to object to the change of use to a church (about 1500, I believe), would seem to suggest otherwise.

    ETA They are looking to buy, not rent. Did you mean London business rates?
  3. Guineveretoo

    Guineveretoo Mostly bewildered

    I don't think Crystal Palace is trendy at all, although it may aspire to it. It certainly hasn't succeeded yet! :eek:

    I believe the people who are interested are the ones who run the Ritzy in Brixton - is that Picture House? I keep wanting to say Picture Palace, but I think that might be the name of the campaign :)
  4. London_Calling

    London_Calling Pleasant and unpatronising

    I really don't think I am.

    But good luck with it.
  5. Guineveretoo

    Guineveretoo Mostly bewildered

    You don't think you are right? :confused:
  6. London_Calling

    London_Calling Pleasant and unpatronising

    I really don't think I'm not wrong.

  7. recumbent

    recumbent New Member

    They catered for 500+, and at the start of the meeting there were maybe 200-300 in the ballroom, but as it turned out around 1,000 turned up, many after the meeting time start (so difficult then to move the hotel's layout). This was the biggest venue available in the vicinity, and was paid for in cash to the hotel out of campaigners pockets. i.e. people like us. This was not a council public meeting in some council facility.

    The church was invited to attend and speak by the meeting organisers. They sent two people along, who refused to speak. They were again invited to speak by the chair of the meeting, during the meeting, but said no. The chair of the meeting did express her regret at this, from the stage.

    Croydon - most of the Triangle is Croydon, and in Croydon's future plans this is a District Centre in major need of regeneration. At least this demonstrates *one* of the five boroughs is interested in the area - most of the rest just ignore it. Croydon are trying to address regen for CP and to get all the 5 of them around the table.

    Bromley - i don't think anyone knew the leader was turning up. He seemed to be a little upset. And he didn't make a statement in support of the cinema. I don't think we knew about Malcolm Wicks either.

    Most of those politicians that did speak in support were ward councillors who have been involved in the cinema campaign themselves for months, so not surprising that they wished to speak. So did members of the public. And so did the vicar etc.

    This church is wealthy - tens of millions in the bank, quite a few million 'profit' every year. Their 'services' are something akin to investment seminars (lots of words like wealth, investments, assets etc thrown around), and people seem to hand over cheques for hundreds or thousands of pounds at a time. There is a lot of big-time tithing. And then of course they get serious cheques back from HMRC for all that tithing (give as you earn) amounting to seven figures per year. They also recently got £13 million 'compensation' from the LDA for leaving a previous building. They are wealthy enough to have had serious plans to build a £70 million church seating 8,000 (and had already spend £3 million on advisers for this) but their plans were scuppered this year. So I guess they are looking for seats for all those thousands of backsides.

    The church has a very similar operation in Hoe Street Walthamstow, though that cinema is slightly smaller than CP (about 150-200 fewer places). Hoe Street gets around 6,000 people turning up on Sundays, mostly in their cars (the car modal share for KICC Hoe Street is 62-72% according to the transport experts, and that's for a place with good transport and a tube line). That still leaves many thousands of London and SE members outside (18,000 members in London).

    So if people think a 450-seater cinema (after conversion) with staggered screenings/attendances would be a problem for CP, imagine what a problem this *regional* church would be in this 1,150 seater place, with 6 back-to-back services per day (which is what happens at Hoe Street). By the way, car use for Picture House customers apparently 15% - most walk or use public transport. People don't travel 20-60 miles to go to the cinema.

    And it is regional. It's to be their SE UK HQ, and there will be people coming in from across Kent, Surrey, Sussex, SW London etc, mostly in their cars (especially given dreadful public transport on Sundays). There are also likely to be '48-hr Miracle' events, which somewhat resemble a rave, but which require no licensing. And so on.

    On bids and prices, the bids were apparently sealed but City Screen (Picture Palace) were not allowed to examine/survey building, the excuse from Gala being that they had not told employees the bingo was shutting down (i.e. the building was sold from under them). As yet, it's unclear whether the church were permitted to survey, as we're hearing contradictory claims. :hmm:

    On UCKG and KICC: they are essentially the same kind of outfit, 'prosperity gospel' is their creed (the so-called 'greed is good' or the overlapping 'word of faith' creed), which is a rather odd offshoot of pentecostalism.

    The Bishop of Croydon on this creed and this church: "I guess the irony is lost on the Guardian, but its feature today on the Kingsway International Christian Centre (in Walthamstow, London) puts into sharp relief the shocking surprise of Easter over against the shocking heresy of some contemporary Pentecostal teaching."

    One church (UCKG) just has more money and more lawyers and experience than the other, and perhaps has been involved in bigger league 'financial mismanagement' than the other too (according to the Brazilian government). KICC is very big on the televangelism lark, with extensive international coverage via Hotbird satellite. The KICC motto is 'taking territories'.

    There are already 18 churches in the immediate area of the Triangle, quite a few of them evangelical or pentecostal, but only one D2 (cinema/bingo) building. On each occasion this building has been sold it has been sold while fully operating as a D2 (ie it's never been shut or redundant). The only people who have shut it are the church.

    A number of the local churches are not exactly supporting the KICC proposal - see the join statement by the four churches read out by one of the vicars at the meeting, available on the Facebook cinema campaign website on video.

    And finally, on screens in S London (top of my head/memory):
    UK average screens per 100,000: 5.4
    London average screens per 100,000: 6.9
    South London average screens per 100,000: 1.8
    (based on UK film Council and LDA data)

    Yes, in S London we have far fewer screens than large swathes of the country.
  8. London_Calling

    London_Calling Pleasant and unpatronising

    That's just daft.

    Streatham: 8 screens
    Brixton: 5 screens
    Croydon: 10 (Vue) + 8 (Purley Way) + 1 (Clocktower)
    Beckenham: 6 screens

    - There are 38 screens within 3 miles.

    Just a little beyond that you also have Clapham Picture House, Bromley, Peckham, Greenwich, Surrey Quays, etc, etc,
    Please make an argument, but lay off the bullshit.

    Why do you think it is the market is ignoring the great opportunity that you see?
  9. recumbent

    recumbent New Member

    As the report says, there are over 110 screens across 12 boroughs. (your 38 screens in 3 miles may or may not be right - but within 3 miles of what? you? The LDA is cross-borough.) But in N London there are around 4 times as many.

    The figures and ratios are taken from the Annex B to the LDA's last, lengthy report on cinemas in London, and there are 11 LBs south of the river. The LDA report says it used UK Film Council data on screens and cinemas. The figures are for 2003. Perhaps you could you list the ones that have been opened since then? There are a few.

    But it would take a few cinemas opening to have a *major* impact on the data.

    The report basically says that the presence of cinemas in London is pretty spotty, with a huge number concentrated in the West End and central/north London, while the other boroughs, particularly S, often not well-served. There are now two London boroughs with no cinemas at all (in both cases the cinema was bought by a church), one of which starts a couple of hundred yards from Crystal Palace; and another 33% of boroughs with only one cinema each. As you can imagine, those cinema-poor boroughs are not in Westminster, H&F, Camden etc. The LDA argued that positive steps needed to be taken to redress the balance by active use of urban planning. That's not my argument, it's theirs.
  10. recumbent

    recumbent New Member

    It is not me. It is a report written by the LDA. I do not "see an opportunity" as you put it. I have nothing to do with the cinema business. I am merely highlighting what has been written in London's own report on cinemas.

    But I wouldn't say the market is ignoring anything. Cinemas have been opening across the country for years, the decline in attendances during the 20th C (esp 80s) seems to have reversed in the last few, according to UK Film Council data, and independents are apparently doing better than multiplexes, same source. There also appears to be a view that cinema does well in recession, so the trend may be likely to continue for now? But people in the business do seem to be responding.

    I suppose it's a question of finding those elusive D2s eh, or building some more? At present CP has a D2 in the old cinema at 25 Church Road, and that's it apart from a sports building in the Park. I get the impression that neither cinemas nor churches have really been much on the town planners radar for quite a few years - they really don't figure much in government planning guidelines and statements - though perhaps changing?
  11. recumbent

    recumbent New Member

    By the way, all the figures I gave were *ratios* - per head of population. That was made very clear on each line, for each data item where it says "per 100,000 ppln". You've taken the immediately following sentence pretty much out of context, as it is clear from those three lines that *the ratio* is much lower in S London; that we have far, far fewer cinemas per head of population. Which is what this is about. It's meaningless to give an absolute figure: it's the ratio that is important. Did you maybe just not read or notice the immediately preceding data?
  12. ethel

    ethel Well-Known Member

    i can't reach any of those cinemas without a change of bus. my most convenient cinema is the BFI, which is just about in south london. lewisham borough has no cinema, which is obvious craziness.
  13. GaryM

    GaryM New Member

    Upon reflection I think that the issue here is maybe not so much cinema vs. church but what makes a good town centre. Palace has great bars/restaurants, supermarket, good selection of independent shops and farmers market. What CP doesn't have anymore is an entertainment venue. My personal view is that if a cinema opened in CP I would be able to easily cycle there and it would reduce my carbon usage from the six miles plus round trip to the Ritzy in Brixton, of which i'm a member.

    My big concern if the church does get it's planning application approved is that it's not a parish church. Traditionally a church would be built to serve the needs of the local population and maybe a couple of times a year pilgrims would venture to larger cathederals. The KICC seem to be wanting to create large cathederals (8000 seater at beams reach) that draw large congregations every week. I was told that the reason for the purchase of the building was to relocate their Wimbeldon church. I wonder how much carbon will be used transporting everyone across south london, this is not twenty first century thinking. In my mind I think this is a matter for the LDA. If the KICC want large venues that draw people from across london and the south east then a vailid transport plan must be in place. I would have hoped that environmental concerns would prevent the change of use at this location. It must be noted that CP road system is diabolical, the one way system can easily cause traffic jams all the way along central hill, sydenham hill, anerley hill, etc. and the smaller roads become rat runs.
  14. recumbent

    recumbent New Member

    Well the KICC got its planning application rejected. And we're now waiting for it to appeal.

    I understand KICC is taking high-falutin' legal advice, but then there are some pretty deep coffers there with squillions tucked away in investment portfolios, so plenty of prospect for the denizens Inns of Court to make a mint out of ye olde prosperity gospel church yet again. (I think the madcap Beam Reach project cost them £2.75m in payments to 'professionals'.)
  15. ice-is-forming

    ice-is-forming Winter is coming......

    i used to love saturday mornings at penge odeon :cool:

    as you were:oops:
  16. JFirewall

    JFirewall New Member

    That road is awful now. Great row of junk and 'retro' clothing shops. I'd consider it a triumph of traditional independent shops, but they're new, and crap.
  17. PacificOcean

    PacificOcean Unhinged User

    Weren't they going to build a huge cinema on the site of the old Crystal Palace a few years ago but everyone got up in arms about it?
  18. strung out

    strung out (",)

    yeah think so. weren't there quite big protests about it?
  19. nicksonic

    nicksonic que acido para la rumba

    they haven't yet and apparently have until june 17th to do so.

    a cinema in CP would obviously be great :cool:
  20. RubyToogood

    RubyToogood can't remember what goes here

  21. Guineveretoo

    Guineveretoo Mostly bewildered

    To update this thread. KICC have, seemingly, announced that they are going to sell the site at 25 Church Road, having repeatedly failed in their attempts to change its use to a church.

    Hopefully, this will mean CP gets a cinema again which, despite what some people on this thread seem to think, I am convinced this is a great idea and would help to regenerate that road itself, which has been struggling a bit. It is the third side of the triangle, and the least busy of the three of them. The best coffee shop in CP was there, but gave up through lack of custom, despite other coffee shop owners managing to open new ones.

    Also, and most importantly for me, it would mean I would be able to get to a cinema by getting the bus that goes past my front door :)

    25 Church Road FOR SALE
    donkyboy, Poi E and Miss-Shelf like this.
  22. TruXta

    TruXta tired

    Thank fuck that hive of parasites are giving up.
    Guineveretoo likes this.
  23. donkyboy

    donkyboy Crazy cat man

    wouldn't it be great if local people could buy shares in order to purchase the site for a cinema? then they get a dividend when the cinema gets built and starts to make a profit?
    Guineveretoo likes this.

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