Camp for climate action!

[TeeJay]

The problem is that once again the green movement is presented as anti-worker and idealistically unconcerned with the day to day difficulties in the lives of ordinary working people.

I've just seen the protest on BBC News 24 and there was no hint of it being "anti-worker", any more than a teachers' strike is anti-children or a tube-stike is anti-commuter.

There are workers involved with all sorts of industrial processes that should be shut down. Sorry, but having fetish about "workers" is both a non-starter when discussing climate change (any change in the energy economy will create jobs not just destroy them) and it is mainly a preoccupation of a far left ghetto not part of mainstream public thinking. As such it is largely irrelevant to what is going on today at Drax.

 

[greenman]

I've just seen the protest on BBC News 24 and there was no hint of it being "anti-worker", any more than a teachers' strike is anti-children or a tube-stike is anti-commuter.

There are workers involved with all sorts of industrial processes that should be shut down. Sorry, but having fetish about "workers" is both a non-starter when discussing climate change (any change in the energy economy will create jobs not just destroy them) and it is mainly a preoccupation of a far left ghetto not part of mainstream public thinking. As such it is largely irrelevant to what is going on today at Drax.

So it is entirely OK and conducive to united action in the broad coalition that is needed to call for the immediate closure of someone's workplace, without consulting them, or suggesting how this might be practically implemented? You might think that concern for the groups of people who actually have some of the muscle and interests to influence events is a "fetish", but then we know your attitude to the working class, and to public services and strategy from other threads....
Thatcher would be proud of your unconcern for the workforce in the face of your higher concerns.........
Perhaps we should just concentrate on influencing big business leaders through 'Green' Alliance and Forum for The Future, eh?

 

[llantwit]

Who's calling for the "immediate closure" of Drax?
Keep it real.

 

[TeeJay]

So it is entirely OK and conducive to united action in the broad coalition that is needed to call for the immediate closure of someone's workplace, without consulting them, or suggesting how this might be practically implemented?

Any "broad coalition" is going to be across the wider public. People with skills in the power sector will still be in demand in a green energy economy - in fact the need to reengineer the UK's energy infrastructure should mean they have plenty of well paid work.

...we know your attitude to the working class, and to public services and strategy from other threads...

As I don't believe in classes or a 'class analysis' I find it hard to have an 'attitude' to something I don't think exists as a real, separate or politically relevant entity.

Feel free to actually engage with what I post rather than drag in completely irrelevant comments about Thatcherism. I will in return refrain from calling you an ultra-left commie and dragging in completely comments about Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky or the Swapbot army.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Solidarity with Drax protestors

I think this demonstration at Drax is incredibly significant and marks the beginning of a new mass movement in the UK. Coming on the heels of Campaign against Climate Change's 10,000 strong Climate March in London last December (part of a global day of demonstrations), and many other political developments such as the formation of the Stop Climate Chaos coalition (which while have grave reservations about this organisation is still a step forward) it shows the beginning of a campaign that could and needs to be bigger than CND in the 80s or the anti-war movement of the last 5 years.

Watched Channel 4 news earlier and they had loads of coverage, also on Radio 4 this morning they were covering this demonstration, it's also on the front page of the Independent who (while advertising cheap flights!) have given extensive coverage to the issue of climate change.

Personally, I think this action at Drax is great and it's brightened up my day. I also profoundly disagree with Matt S. slightly sour assesment, while all these activists in Yorkshire will have to go back to their communities and figure out how to build a mass campaign that will engage with the ordinary man and woman on the street, I think that the demonstrations in Yorkshire have been inspirational and show the way ahead, and it is great to see demonstrations over Climate Change now getting loads of publicity.

Obviously, what is needed now is to start building a mass movement that will embrace a plethora of methods of campaigning from direct action, public meetings, events, marches that will engage with many different constituencies. But I think given the scale of the issue facing the planet
civil disobedience is a duty!

Greenman is right that there might be some limitations with some of the tactics and thinking behind the action at Drax. But I say discuss this tomorrow! For today we should just congratulate the activists! I'm sure as the movement over Climate Change gets bigger there will be plenty of forums to debate these questions.

 

[knopf]

 

[sinbit]

Well said!

 

[refugee]

Perhaps we should just concentrate on influencing big business leaders through 'Green' Alliance and Forum for The Future, eh?

You think big business wants Drax closed down? eh?

 

[greenman]

Who's calling for the "immediate closure" of Drax?
Keep it real.

Camp spokesperson, interviewed on first day of camp, on R5, iirc.

 

[llantwit]

I think this demonstration at Drax is incredibly significant and marks the beginning of a new mass movement in the UK.

Oh fuck. There was me being slightly heartened by the whole thing, and along come the SWP to declare it a new mass movement.
Kiss of death there Udo, mate.

 

[llantwit]

Obviously, what is needed now is to start building a mass movement that will embrace a plethora of methods of campaigning from DIRECT ACTION, public meetings, events, marches that will engage with many different constituencies. But I think given the scale of the issue facing the planet
civil disobedience is a duty!

Jesus, nice one Udo... didn't expect to hear that from you. Fair play.
Don't you wanna keep you're voice down saying shit like that, though.
I'd hate to see yer counterrevolutionary ass without a forum about Malcom X to organise in Fresher's week.

 

[aurora green]

I dont think it's at all unrealistic to call for such an old fashioned and polluting coal fired power station like Drax,to be closed down.
We need to take immediate action.
There will be loads of jobs in producing alternative energy, and although the shift is likely to be painful, it is one we must make.

 

[llantwit]

Camp spokesperson, interviewed on first day of camp, on R5, iirc.

What, like today?
But much innit?
Shurely an orderly transition is called for.

 

[greenman]

You think big business wants Drax closed down? eh?

Big business wants whatever will make them a profit.
The point being made is that the right wing of the green movement (as eloquently expressed in Porritt's latest opus) sees influencing corporate capital and the 'business community' as a more important task than organising for real social and political change. It is a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of capitalism, and a naively utopian view of its' capacity for change.
The activistist wing of the green movement is also naive in its' view that direct action, street activism or ordinary campaigning are enough, (on their own, without engaging broader social forces) to bring about meaningful and sustainable change.
I have rather more faith in the posibility of convincing the activistist wing of the green movement that a different (ecosocialist) strategy is needed, than I have in the possibility of changing the views and attitudes of either big business or those who have made profitable careers out of the environmental movement.....

 

[TeeJay]

...There will be loads of jobs in producing alternative energy, and although the shift is likely to be painful, it is one we must make.

The shift would be a lot more painful for the people who owned the power station than the people who will transfer their energy sector skills to the new eco-efficient energy economy.

 

[greenman]

I dont think it's at all unrealistic to call for such an old fashioned and polluting coal fired power station like Drax,to be closed down.
We need to take immediate action.
There will be loads of jobs in producing alternative energy, and although the shift is likely to be painful, it is one we must make.

Who is we?
Who is the shift likely to be most 'painful' for if closure is immediate, before the alternative UK energy industry employment that Teejay mentions becomes available?
Not disputing that Drax should be replaced ASAP - ideally by renewables. The run in time on new build, demand, and likely renewables capacity means that coal fired stations are likely to be required for some time though, which means carbon capture and clean coal tech should be implemented ASAP as well, to minimise the C02 effect. This is something that you could unite with energy workers around, along with calling/working for a massive programme of energy conservation.
The result of simply shutting Drax tomorrow however would likely be a) in the short term power cuts, and b) in the longer term increased import of nuclear, gas and coal generated electricity and c) (using the arguments of a and b,) increased power to the elbow of the government/corporate cabal currently trying to shove through a new generation of nuclear power plants.

 

[llantwit]

That sounds reasonable to me./\

 

[TeeJay]

Who is we?
Who is the shift likely to be most 'painful' for?
Not disputing that Drax should be replaced ASAP - ideally by renewables. The run in time on new build, demand, and likely renewables capacity means that coal fired stations are likely to be required for some time though, which means carbon capture and clean coal tech should be implemented ASAP as well, to minimise the C02 effect. This is something that you could unite with energy workers around, along with calling/working for a massive programme of energy conservation.
The result of simply shutting Drax tomorrow however would likely be a) in the short term power cuts, and b) in the longer term increased import of nuclear, gas and coal generated electricity and c) (using the arguments of a and b,) increased power to the elbow of the government/corporate cabal currently trying to shove through a new generation of nuclear power plants.

Your nuanced and reasonable argument is all well and good but it lacks any kind of impact. Surely campaigners should set out a clear demand and let the mainstream politicians run around having to react, draw up "reasonable" (ie watered down) versions and bullshit everyone with a million and one reasons why things can't be done immediately (ie why they won't be done at all).

Sometimes people's patience with this bullshit runs out. We have heard it all before - how the UK is going to be made green and sustainable - only to see fuck all change happen in reality.

Sometimes people need to cut through the bullshit with a very clear message backed up by concrete and visible actions.

 

[llantwit]

Also true./\

 

[Kid_Eternity]

/\

Likes this /\

 

[llantwit]

/\
/\
tis the shit

_______________________/\

 

[aurora green]

Your nuanced and reasonable argument is all well and good but it lacks any kind of impact. Surely campaigners should set out a clear demand and let the mainstream politicians run around having to react, draw up "reasonable" (ie watered down) versions and bullshit everyone with a million and one reasons why things can't be done immediately (ie why they won't be done at all).

Exactly!

Be realistic - Demand the impossible!
..and all that....

 

[Udo Erasmus]

I think Greenman is correct in his overall analysis, but the effect of the Drax protest as a publicity stunt is very good and has got huge media attention. The simple slogan "Shut it down!" seems to have been effective in both capturing the imagination of protestors and the imagination of the public, and I think more swamping of power stations by protest is very effective in stimulating a debate on renewable energy in the media and wider society.
I have to say that Teejay is quite correct when he says that Greenman's "nuanced and balanced argument is all very well but lacks impact". Surely the Drax protest by generating publicity actually opens up debate meaning that possibility for a dialogue on the kind of basis that Greenman says.

As a long term strategy cutting power cables is not good, but as a publicity stunt now it shows that the movement means business, and cuts through a lot of bullshit. As the chinese proverb says, "A single spark can light a prairie fire"

Similar events and actions were important in kick-starting the anti-capitalist movement in the late 90s and early 21st century, obviously the movement has moved on and matured, but I think this kind of stuff combined with other actions is generally good thing.

People dismissed the early anti-capitalist movement in a similar way, yet rank-and-file trade union newspapers found their letters page filled up with people inspired by Seattle and Genoa. A similar dismissive criticism was made of rioting students in Paris 1968, yet while the students by themselves couldn't effect change, they were the detonator for a surge of mass strikes and occupations by workers.

 

[llantwit]

Does this signify that we're entering a pre-revolutionary period Udo?

 

[In Bloom]

Saying that it isn't worth doing anything is not 'debating tactics'

I never said that. I've said that it's not possible to do anything about certain things in the current political climate. That's not the same thing at all, but I've explained this to you on several occaisions and you still continue to repeat the same old slurs, so I doubt you'll actually listen on this occaision either.

neither is constantly slagging people's actions off without suggesting any better alternatives.

So unless you can immediately come up with a solution to a problem, you're not allowed to suggest that resources might be better spent elsewhere? What an odd way of going about things.

You can only do so many things, you might as well concentrate your efforts on the things that have some chance of success.

 

[Cobbles]

Similar events and actions were important in kick-starting the anti-capitalist movement in the late 90s and early 21st century, obviously the movement has moved on and matured, but I think this kind of stuff combined with other actions is generally good thing.

People dismissed the early anti-capitalist movement in a similar way, yet rank-and-file trade union newspapers found their letters page filled up with people inspired by Seattle and Genoa. A similar dismissive criticism was made of rioting students in Paris 1968, yet while the students by themselves couldn't effect change, they were the detonator for a surge of mass strikes and occupations by workers.

Which achieved nothing just like the anti capitalist movement.

As far as I'm aware, Capitalism is alive and well, flourishing, having destroyed its only competitor (the fatally flawed Soviet model) now only flourishing in world leading states such as Cuba and North Korea.

 

[blinkyspoogle]

i hope yorkshire police get their arses kicked those cunts have a lot to answer for

 

[free spirit]

fair play to the climate camp protestors, front page in the indypendant, major news items and discussion on all major news programmes, + look north and tyne tees yesterday for the hartlepool nuclear power station demo.

have to say I'd got my doubts about it all, particularly after the bollocks of the dissent 'no press' strategy last year, which IMO pretty much made the entire thing pointless, maybe this will help push this into the mainstream after all?

I take it from the news saying that police were drawn from nearby counties that the Met weren't in attendence then? Probably explains the lack of violence and rioting

eta - ah I see from indymedia the met were there, with complaints of aggressive policing and violence following them around like a bad smell. It really doesn't seem to matter where the met end up, they always seem to find an excuse to kick off - even the Stirling police were saying the same thing about them last year.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

The meeja and mainstream are being way too slow to take up the seriousness of the issues - just how much we need to change the economy and essentially downshift our lifestyles.

its a caricature but there is still a kind of vibe that low energy lightbulbs and a bit of recycling will do the trick.

This week is about challenging the way we view our whole energy system. Drax was a very clever choice, unconnected with oil and nuclear which get more attention, it is highlights the bredth of the energy issue.

The council planning processes are now crucial as these are the decisions affecting the next 50 years.

The people at climate camp will be taking the lessons back to their communties I've no doubt. Outreach to non-activist types needs a lot of thinking through.

Once more we have seen that direct action is more effective than demos, writing to your MP and even possibly voting, important as these are.

 

[treelover]

There is roughly 35-40 arrests being cited now, considering that there were around 650 people at the camp, that is quite a high proportion.