Cameron went on jolly to apartheid South Africa

[Belushi]

Actually there are plenty of Tory 'rising stars' who were members of the FCS and wore 'Hang Nelson Mandela T-Shirts, or 'Support The Contras', as well as Tories, RW libertarians like Paul Staines(Guido Fawkes) also supported these sentiments.

I once lived with a fella who'd been in the FCS and he was a cunt. Usually I dont hold peoples politics against them and have Tory friends but this fella was basically a fascist.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Are you saying men and women get equal treatment in a lot of ME countries?

I was replying to a point that specified former Eastern Block countries and Cuba, so no, I am not saying that.

Please don't misrepresent me like that.

ETA: I've just realised that you're probably confusing Eastern Block (former communist countries allied to the Soviet Union) with Middle East.

 

[Fedayn]

I once lived with a fella who'd been in the FCS and he was a cunt. Usually I dont hold peoples politics against them and have Tory friends but this fella was basically a fascist.

There was a wee 'coterie' around former FCS fruitloop Harry Phibbs who used to call for the legalisation of child porn as there was a market for it ergo, using the supply and demand line, it should be legalised.

 

[dylanredefined]

Was there not an episode of red dwarf where the crew justified dining with hitler and other dictators as they had all the nice stuff?
So cameron either supported apartheid or he just wanted a freebie either way its a cuntish thing to dnly way he could have got away with it was on his return admit he was wrong and that apartheid was evil.Dont remeber him becoming a leading anti-apartheid campaigner.
Have to admit I swallowed the daily mail line on south africa only excuse I was barely a teenager ,but,even by 89 I thought there was something dodgy
about it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not that I would defend Cameron on anything, but it seems a little unfair.
I have to say, there were a few Labour MPs, who visited the police states of the Eastern Block, and those who have visited the military dictatorship of Cuba.
No mention of them.

Very few visits to regimes that practiced constitutionally-enshrined racism, though.

Cameron is a hideous individual from the upper class, who was a member of some snobby group while a student, who thought it was fun to trash restaurants and abuse the staff, but pay for any damage later.

On the subject of this thread, he was no worse than many others visiting dodgy nations.

You're conflating regimes that were considered "dodgy" by virtue of the brand of "left" politics they purported to practice, with a regime that enacted a constitutionally-enshrined hierarchy of racism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Because they were not states that organised their citizens by race, that's why not.

Agreed, although with the proviso that the Soviet Union sometimes operated a de facto system of treating the peoples of some of the smaller/less important parts of the union in what could be construed as a colonial/racist manner. That, however, was pretty much an extension of the attitude of the Tsarist Russian empire.

 

[frogwoman]

Agreed, although with the proviso that the Soviet Union sometimes operated a de facto system of treating the peoples of some of the smaller/less important parts of the union in what could be construed as a colonial/racist manner. That, however, was pretty much an extension of the attitude of the Tsarist Russian empire.

Yeah the Soviet Union at least during the Stalin years was very hung up on race/"nationality" - look at the deportations of the Crimean Tatars for example - I did my dissertation partially on this.

However, it wasn't an overall policy, it chnaged with different Soviet leaders, and wasn't enshrined in the constitution and so rigid/inflexibly racist as South Africa's was, which essentialy treated blacks as subhuman.

 

[sonny61]

Very few visits to regimes that practiced constitutionally-enshrined racism, though.


You're conflating regimes that were considered "dodgy" by virtue of the brand of "left" politics they purported to practice, with a regime that enacted a constitutionally-enshrined hierarchy of racism.

The Communist USSR, from 1917 onwards killed millions of it's own people, through executions, deportation to Siberia, deliberate starvation of large numbers of the population with it's biggest mass murderer Stalin, easy on par with Hitler.
I once read there was mass panic amongst the Communists leadership, when Stalin was to visit a remote part of the USSR by train. The problem being Stalin had killed all the skilled track and train workers, as enemies of the State. So the train service was falling apart with no skilled workers to run it left alive, they despaired how they were going to get him there. knowing failure to do so could mean death for them and their families. I can't remember how they did get him there, but they manage to somehow.

So yes, easy on par with South Africa. If I remember correctly, the Communists in the USSR were not that keen on Jews, although there were Jews in the leadership. Many of the well known dissidents were Jewish.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The Communist USSR, from 1917 onwards killed millions of it's own people, through executions, deportation to Siberia, deliberate starvation of large numbers of the population with it's biggest mass murderer Stalin, easy on par with Hitler.
I once read there was mass panic amongst the Communists leadership, when Stalin was to visit a remote part of the USSR by train. The problem being Stalin had killed all the skilled track and train workers, as enemies of the State. So the train service was falling apart with no skilled workers to run it left alive, they despaired how they were going to get him there. knowing failure to do so could mean death for them and their families. I can't remember how they did get him there, but they manage to somehow.

So yes, easy on par with South Africa. If I remember correctly, the Communists in the USSR were not that keen on Jews, although there were Jews in the leadership. Many of the well known dissidents were Jewish.

Comprehension fail.

 

[butchersapron]

The Communist USSR, from 1917 onwards killed millions of it's own people, through executions, deportation to Siberia, deliberate starvation of large numbers of the population with it's biggest mass murderer Stalin, easy on par with Hitler.
I once read there was mass panic amongst the Communists leadership, when Stalin was to visit a remote part of the USSR by train. The problem being Stalin had killed all the skilled track and train workers, as enemies of the State. So the train service was falling apart with no skilled workers to run it left alive, they despaired how they were going to get him there. knowing failure to do so could mean death for them and their families. I can't remember how they did get him there, but they manage to somehow.

So yes, easy on par with South Africa. If I remember correctly, the Communists in the USSR were not that keen on Jews, although there were Jews in the leadership. Many of the well known dissidents were Jewish.

You might as well gob in the face of those thousands of labour party members who tirelessly worked to support the anti-apartheid struggle. You're a disgrace.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The Communist USSR, from 1917 onwards killed millions of it's own people, through executions, deportation to Siberia, deliberate starvation of large numbers of the population with it's biggest mass murderer Stalin, easy on par with Hitler.

I'm fully aware of that. Some of the Ukrainians who starved to death because of the Holodomor in Ukraine after Stalin seized the grain reserves were my maternal ancestors. Many of those that survived were murdered by the Nazis a decade later.

I once read there was mass panic amongst the Communists leadership, when Stalin was to visit a remote part of the USSR by train. The problem being Stalin had killed all the skilled track and train workers, as enemies of the State. So the train service was falling apart with no skilled workers to run it left alive, they despaired how they were going to get him there. knowing failure to do so could mean death for them and their families. I can't remember how they did get him there, but they manage to somehow.

Have you ever talked to people in the former Soviet republics? I've spoken to my extended family (Jews who're descended from Ukrainian anarchists who fought the bolshevisation of the Ukrainian revolution, and had no love of Stalin or his successors), and very few of the stories about complete destabilisation of industry and infrastructure appear to have been borne out in fact. The same story was told about the Soviet Ukraine's optical industry, which somehow managed to continue producing high class optics nonetheless.

So yes, easy on par with South Africa. If I remember correctly, the Communists in the USSR were not that keen on Jews, although there were Jews in the leadership. Many of the well known dissidents were Jewish.

Communism had no animus with Jews, although some communists did. Private prejudice, however, is a different thing to state prejudice enacted into law.

 

[ericjarvis]

I put it all down to the current neo-con anti-left propaganda. There are a couple of bits in the post that point to buying into that particular vein of misinformation. First there's the assumption that all left of centre politics can be equated to Maoism and Stalinism. Then there's the credulous acceptance of the idea that when somebody dies of starvation under a communist regime they have been deliberately murdered by the government, but if they die of starvation under a capitalist regime it is simply one of those things that can't be avoided. Which is how right wingers can produce insane ideas such as Allende having been a mass murderer. All left wingers are identical to Stalin. Just about every death in the Soviet Union under Stalin was murder by the state. Ergo Allende was a mass murderer even though his response to his political opponents was to form a coalition government.

Thus apartheid South Africa, Pinochet's Chile, Hussein's Iraq, etc can be justified as a necessary evil to prevent the inevitable mass murder by the evil Stalinist despotism that would have been the only alternative to a regime committed to anti-communism.

It's logical so long as you make no effort to actually examine the premises, and don't look too hard at some of the dafter assumptions.

 

[frogwoman]

Stalin isn't the same as "the soviet union" ffs - he died in 1953.

 

[Azrael]

Personally I don't see why a racialist police state is worse than a regular police state. Both are vile, and the fate of dissidents is the same. Of course, without the aggravating factor of "racism", the left couldn't use contact with South Africa as a stick to beat the right with. Never mind Eastern Europe; how many left-wingers have visited or supported Cuba?

Stalinism is also irrelevant. It's a question of degree, nothing more.

The effectiveness of sanctions is debatable, but you should minimize your association with police states to the essential. Mr Cameron's visit to South Africa doesn't sound essential, but given his disgraceful treatment of Patrick Mercer (a "racist" who, at one time, had five black sergeant majors serving under him), I think it's safe to say that Mr Cameron will eagerly suppress any policy that could have the taint of racism.

 

[frogwoman]

Personally I don't see why a racialist police state is worse than a regular police state. Both are vile, and the fate of dissidents is the same.

why not?

 

[glenquagmire]

"I can't be racist, I employ five black people."

Marvellous.

 

[Belushi]

Stalin isn't the same as "the soviet union" ffs - he died in 1953.

Innit, and at the same time as Ukraine famine millions were starving in British India...

 

[Azrael]

why not?

For the reason I described. The practical effect is the same; you're still living under a tyranny. Why do you think oppression based on the colour of your skin, or origin, is worse than simple oppression?

"I can't be racist, I employ five black people."

Marvellous.

He promoted them, if I recall right. He didn't just "employ" them; he appointed them to prestigious and respected positions of authority. Hardly the action of a racial bigot, is it?

 

[butchersapron]

For the reason I described. The practical effect is the same; you're still living under a tyranny. Why do you think oppression based on the colour of your skin, or origin, is worse than simple oppression?

Is it not? Ok, you're against private property and allsorts that you're not actually against.

You fail this moral test then you're worthless.

 

[Azrael]

You fail this moral test then you're worthless.

Drop the ad hominem threats please. You're better than that.

Can you explain why being arrested, dispossessed, tried in a kangaroo court and shot is better if the trumped up charge of disloyalty isn't based on your ethnicity? Because that's a curious moral position.

 

[butchersapron]

Beause the charges relates to birth rather than activity. And no, i'm not better than that. I did pass the aparthied test though with all my faults -some here haven't.

 

[frogwoman]

Beause the charges relates to birth rather than activity. And no, i'm not better than that. I did pass the aparthied test though with all my faults -some here haven't.

this ^

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You're way off on this one, Azrael. To equate the lack of freedom in Cuba with Apartheid South Africa is idiotic.

I lived in Cuba for a year (not because I supported the regime – I've also lived in the USA). It is a country where racial prejudice exists, but it is NOT written into its laws (it was before Castro, btw – 1950s Cuba was racist in the same way that 1950s USA was). Apartheid was an affront to human dignity in exactly the same way as chattel slavery had been. I'm surprised you don't see this.

 

[Azrael]

Beause the charges relates to birth rather than activity.

Given that the non-existent standards of Soviet jurisprudence were manna for false accusers, innocent people suffer regardless.

And even if the charge was true, I don't see why being tortured and shot for exercising basic rights is worse than being tortured and shot for your race. No choice vs. chosing to live like a slave. Both are squalid options.

Tyranny in all its forms is equally bad.

And no, i'm not better than that. I did pass the aparthied test though with all my faults -some here haven't.

What "apartheid test"? I already said that contact with police states should be kept to a minimum.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Tyranny in all its forms is equally bad.

No. It is not.

Again, this is an obviously wrong thing to say.

 

[Azrael]

Apartheid was an affront to human dignity in exactly the same way as chattel slavery had been. I'm surprised you don't see this.

Where did I accuse Cuba of racism?

It seems I'm managing that old trick of saying things without even typing them. Curious. Of course Grand Apartheid was an affront to human dignity. I've not argued otherwise. If the leaders of South Africa happened to have died in a bloody rebellion, I certainly wouldn't have shed a tear. Sic semper tyrannis.

All I've argued is that the actions of other police states are no better.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

All I've argued is that the actions of other police states are no better.

Yes. And this is where you are wrong.

 

[butchersapron]

The police actions you mean. Ignore the basis of these police actions. I thought much better of you.

 

[Azrael]

No. It is not.

Again, this is an obviously wrong thing to say.

Why? I've given my own reasons. The alternative isn't self-evident.

 

[butchersapron]

Given that the non-existent standards of Soviet jurisprudence were manna for false accusers, innocent people suffer regardless.

And even if the charge was true, I don't see why being tortured and shot for exercising basic rights is worse than being tortured and shot for your race. No choice vs. chosing to live like a slave. Both are squalid options.

Tyranny in all its forms is equally bad.

What "apartheid test"? I already said that contact with police states should be kept to a minimum.

And even if the charge was true, I don't see why being tortured and shot for exercising basic rights is worse than being tortured and shot for your race.

This is the difference.