Calorie Deficiency

[A380]

You read of peasant families in cold northern parts basically crawling through winter on low calorie diets and doing as little as possible to avoid burning energy.

Bolton isn't that bad.

 

[gentlegreen]

Weight training would really help rather than just relying on cardio.

I posted elsewhere that I wonder if my body is trying to force me to add sufficient muscle mass to use the calories it makes me eat
At some point this year I will have to attempt a push-up....
I'm moderately surprised there's no gym equipment in the park - and I've never seen any of the runners stop to do any...

 

[Sue]

I posted elsewhere that I wonder if my body is trying to force me to add sufficient muscle mass to use the calories it makes me eat
At some point this year I will have to attempt a push-up....
I'm moderately surprised there's no gym equipment in the park - and I've never seen any of the runners stop to do any...

Why not give it a go now? Seize the day and all that!

And adding in some squats/lunges/deadlifts would probably be a plan too. (I'm guessing you're not a gym person but might be helpful to learn some stuff/have access to some weights. Bet you could get a very good deal somewhere, especially if you go during the day when it's nice and quiet.)

 

[gentlegreen]

I disagree! GG has been relatively successful over the years imo and has a fairly good idea of what causes his fluctuations. Weight loss is slow and ongoing and has to be maintained. The majority of people don't manage this.

Also 'miserable diet' is subjective. You might not like it but no-ones making you eat what he eats and he seems pretty happy with it, tahini monster that he is

I was prompted earlier today by a youtube video on BSE to ponder how my family thinks of my dietary choices - in the past I was often told I did it for antisocial reasons - and my steady weight increase from 43 onwards coincided with going pesco - then cheese - then eggs - though of course ultimately it was the other stuff that went with it.
Food is making at least three of my immediate family sick.

I genuinely look forward to my green veggies and not just because I know they are good for my health - though that's certainly part of it.

 

[gentlegreen]

(I'm guessing you're not a gym person but might be helpful to learn some stuff/have access to some weights. Bet you could get a very good deal somewhere, especially if you go during the day when it's nice and quiet.)

That would be a step too far - not least because I'm not ready to spend time indoors with other people, but one day I will probably set myself up at home.
(Patrick Stewart)is in good nick and apparently does it all with bodyweight ...

 

[iona]

Just to restate, when u say it 'just is', you're refering to needing less energy to do the same task when you're skinnier plugging that calorie deficiency. Not sure how you can say it 'just is' without knowing the numbers: reduction in required energy to do the same tasks (x), compared with deficiency of calories (y).

I mean you can probably calculate the precise amount of energy an individual would need to do a specific task but I'm not even sure of all the variables you'd need to take into account and how you'd go about measuring them. It doesn't change the basic principle that it takes more energy to move a greater mass though.

 

[gentlegreen]

Fat cells themselves use energy.
I suppose it stands to reason - they're part of a dynamic system - and aren't like hair or nails
I'd never given it much thought ...

Israel Ramirez
·

Retired Biopsychologist

Yes they do but their rate of energy metabolism is low.
Adipocytes continually release and take up small amounts of fatty acids. This is called a “futile cycle” and it may seem wasteful, but always having the enzymes to do both means that they are ready to take up fat when there is a surplus and are ready to can release it when the body needs energy. This, in fact what happens during the course of a day. Immediately after a meal, adipocytes have to store the fat you just ate but, afterwards, they release fats to provide fuel for your body.
Insulin favors fat storage. Epinephrine and corticosteroids favor release of fat.
Maintaining the enzymes and cell surface receptors for all of this, requires continuous protein synthesis as well as destruction of old or damaged proteins.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

He'll start to lose weight. He'll start to feel tired and perhaps a bit weaker. He'll do less stuff and there will be less of him so he'll burn fewer calories each day and will eventually level out at a point where cals in equals cals out unless he's really severely undereating.

Yep, this. Plus there are various emergency mechanisms in the body to prioritise energy expenditure in an emergency, he could go keto, etc.

But yeah, if you don't eat enough, good luck having the energy to do anything. I saw an interview a while ago with someone who was on a calorie-restricted diet following the theory that this slows down ageing. He'd been doing it for quite a few years and he did look young for his age, but he admitted that he couldn't really do much. He didn't have the energy.

Despite their claims to the contrary, the two people I know who regularly go 'keto' also seem pretty lethargic to me while they're doing it. And this isn't surprising. The ketosis mechanism for releasing energy isn't as effective as the one that uses sugars.

 

[WouldBe]

If I buy a cake for the family and everyone else's maintenance calories are somewhere between 1200 and 1800, how much of the cake should I get? If I don't get larger portions of food than everyone else how am I meant to avoid starvation?

Just eat it all on the way home and don't tell the family.

 

[gentlegreen]

The 800kcal diet regime developed at Newcastle for diabetes specifically excludes any increase in exercise.
I imagine a keto diet is less extreme than that.
I have been taking advantage of some anxiety and nausea in recent days to quasi-fast and I can tell the difference in terms of weariness in walking just a few miles and feeling the cold when I stop moving - though thinking about it I used to cycle 4 miles to work on empty - though I tended to welcome my breakfast bread when I arrived.

 

[Idaho]

Despite their claims to the contrary, the two people I know who regularly go 'keto' also seem pretty lethargic to me while they're doing it. And this isn't surprising. The ketosis mechanism for releasing energy isn't as effective as the one that uses sugars.

It's very hard to actually achieve ketosis for any extended period of time. Even if you do achieve it for a while, the human body will adapt and drop out of ketosis after a few months, regardless of the diet.

That said, as a way of kick starting weight loss and dramatically improving insulin sensitivity, it's pretty effective - especially if you are one of those people who experiences a big blood sugar response to carbohydrates.

The usual side effects are fatigue, headaches and nausea - although these usually pass.

 

[maomao]

Just eat it all on the way home and don't tell the family.

I bought two cakes. I'm talking about the one that made it home.

 

[Cid]

Just to restate, when u say it 'just is', you're refering to needing less energy to do the same task when you're skinnier plugging that calorie deficiency. Not sure how you can say it 'just is' without knowing the numbers: reduction in required energy to do the same tasks (x), compared with deficiency of calories (y).

Using a larger machine to do a task requires more energy. To be overly reductive. You don't need to know the exact numbers, it's just a question of efficiency.

More broadly humans will just adapt within a certain range. Someone who needs 2200 calories and gets 2100 (again being reductive) might not notice anything, but will just slightly slacken off some activities to compensate. Same person on 1800 might feel fatigued and hungry.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's very hard to actually achieve ketosis for any extended period of time. Even if you do achieve it for a while, the human body will adapt and drop out of ketosis after a few months, regardless of the diet.

That said, as a way of kick starting weight loss and dramatically improving insulin sensitivity, it's pretty effective - especially if you are one of those people who experiences a big blood sugar response to carbohydrates.

The usual side effects are fatigue, headaches and nausea - although these usually pass.

It's a mechanism we have evolved to cope with emergency. As biochemist Nick Lane notes in his book on metabolism, Transformer (great book btw), the presence of ketones is associated in our bodies with starvation and tends to put the body into survival mode. As this switches off growth signals, it may even slow down cancers, but that's not proven. Lane also points out that brains much prefer glucose, which may account for the headaches and nausea, and I would wager quite probably results in some cognitive deficiencies as well.

I have mixed feelings about my friends who do it. They're a bit too evangelical about it. Certainly they lose weight when doing it and one of them is borderline Type 2 so if it helps with that then all is good. But they don't recognise the fall off in energy levels that is evident from the outside. There's a reason it's not our default setting.

 

[Cid]

For what it's worth I'm 'in remission' for type 2. I lost a fair amount of weight toward the start of the pandemic (largely through cutting alcohol), but beyond that it's really just been regular exercise. Other than the aforementioned low booze period, I have payed fuck all attention to carbs. Anecdote not data of course, but then a lot of the stuff around keto is pure bobbins, so <shrug>.

 

[NoXion]

Don't think I could ever hack a keto diet. I get super irritable if I don't get enough carbs and would probably end up kicking someone.

 

[Idaho]

Lane also points out that brains much prefer glucose, which may account for the headaches and nausea, and I would wager quite probably results in some cognitive deficiencies as well.

That's far from uncontested. One of the most frequent reported effects of ketosis is mental clarity. The ketogenic diet is prescribed for epilepsy in some circumstances.

There isn't a one size fits all solution with diet. The fact that there are great swathes of people in the world telling you that their diet of only vegetables/meat/fat/bread/intermittent nothing etc is the true path to health because it works for them, is strong evidence that there are a few varied and effective approaches.

Probably the key takeaway is what to avoid - processed food. Eat whatever food works for you, as long as it doesn't come in a packet with a list of ingredients and additives.

 

[gentlegreen]

For what it's worth I'm 'in remission' for type 2. I lost a fair amount of weight toward the start of the pandemic (largely through cutting alcohol), but beyond that it's really just been regular exercise. Other than the aforementioned low booze period, I have payed fuck all attention to carbs. Anecdote not data of course, but then a lot of the stuff around keto is pure bobbins, so <shrug>.

What I have heard about keto diets is that as already mentioned, many people aren't actually in ketosis, but like most weight-loss diets it excludes problem foods - but also can make people nauseous and go off eating ...

With early stage type 2, according to Roy Taylor you just need to ratchet out the fat from your liver so there's slack for excess glucose (or anything else) to be stored in there as fat - though ideally it will actually be getting stored somewhere else... the liver and pancreas get emptied first.
Alcohol (and fructose) is a special sort of calories in that it is only processed (and stored I think) in the liver.

Exercise has the bonus of allowing glycogen storage in muscles that's separate from the insulin mechanism.
The whole carb thing becomes somewhat irrelevant once your insulin is working again and excess glucose can be safely stored (beyond that stored as glycogen in muscles) and is only a worry for people who can't do this and are actually still diabetic.

My very brief experience with insulin resistance encouraged me to adopt a diabetes-friendly diet but my primary aim is actually to reduce calories and less "spikey" foods are less likely to cause a sugar crash and make you eat more ...

Coincidentally in the past couple of days I encountered two non-diabetics on Paltalk voluntarily testing themselves - one of them on the mic ... and there are "wellness" people out there using their own continuous glucose monitors.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

One of the most frequent reported effects of ketosis is mental clarity.

I don't trust self-reporting on that. I'd want to see some measurements. I'm not doubting that people think they have mental clarity, but we all too easily trick ourselves.

ETA: Also, is the reason keto is recommended for epilepsy precisely because brains prefer glucose? I could see how slowing down the brain's metabolism could help with epilepsy.

 

[Cid]

Not many things where 'it's sometimes used as a treatment for intractable epilepsy' is seen as an endorsement for general uptake.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I can see how the sense of achievement at getting to the ketosis stage (added to seeing the weight start to fall off) could release various chemicals in our brains to make us feel happy and clear-headed. Achieving difficult goals is a huge tonic for any of us. But I'd still want to see how that self-reportedly clear-headed person performed in a maths exam compared to their non-keto selves.

 

[gentlegreen]

Not many things where 'it's sometimes used as a treatment for intractable epilepsy' is seen as an endorsement for general uptake.

A bit of a detour, but it's the paleo thing that disappoints me more, because it sounds like a sensible idea, but is a wasted opportunity because it's a lot nearer to something sensible... how can they call a diet healthy where they've eliminated beans ???

 

[8ball]

A bit of a detour, but it's the paleo thing that disappoints me more, because it sounds like a sensible idea, but is a wasted opportunity because it's a lot nearer to something sensible... how can they call a diet healthy where they've eliminated beans ???

Anti-nutrients, innit.

 

[Idaho]

I don't trust self-reporting on that. I'd want to see some measurements. I'm not doubting that people think they have mental clarity, but we all too easily trick ourselves.

ETA: Also, is the reason keto is recommended for epilepsy precisely because brains prefer glucose? I could see how slowing down the brain's metabolism could help with epilepsy.

I am a suspicious of the suspicion of ketogenic diets Seems to be a combination of curmudgeonly fear of the strange, suspicion of something that seems to work too easily, residual "but fat is bad for you", and understandable irritation of keto evangelists

 

[8ball]

I'm not doubting that people think they have mental clarity, but we all too easily trick ourselves.

There is a theory that it is the body saying "find some food.. NOW!!", but you make a good point.

 

[Callie]

I posted elsewhere that I wonder if my body is trying to force me to add sufficient muscle mass to use the calories it makes me eat
At some point this year I will have to attempt a push-up....
I'm moderately surprised there's no gym equipment in the park - and I've never seen any of the runners stop to do any...

Some parks do have outdoor gym equipment...I think you can look it up on my council website so you might have similar??

 

[Idaho]

A bit of a detour, but it's the paleo thing that disappoints me more, because it sounds like a sensible idea, but is a wasted opportunity because it's a lot nearer to something sensible... how can they call a diet healthy where they've eliminated beans ???

Paleo is kind of nonsense to some extent. Humans in the stone age did eat beans and grains!u But in the general approach of promoting real food over junk food, it is net positive.

 

[8ball]

I am a suspicious of the suspicion of ketogenic diets Seems to be a combination of curmudgeonly fear of the strange, suspicion of something that seems to work too easily, residual "but fat is bad for you", and understandable irritation of keto evangelists

I saw a vid recently with a YouTuber and this nutritional expert guy who actually does seem to have good credentials.
YouTuber said he had the best success weight loss wise with the keto diet and they went over what he ate and he was doing the keto diet wrong and had actually accidentally created a pretty good diet (some of the veg he was eating had too many carbs in or something).

When you force your body onto the "backup fuel", it's reasonable to wonder why your body doesn't consider it the premium day to day fuel.

 

[8ball]

Paleo is kind of nonsense to some extent. Humans in the stone age did eat beans and grains!u But in the general approach of promoting real food over junk food, it is net positive.

I think it's nonsense to a very large extent, but yeah, at least it involves actual food.

 

[gentlegreen]

Some parks do have outdoor gym equipment...I think you can look it up on my council website so you might have similar??

Not in my local park. I reckon I might get lynched if I use the kiddies' climbing frame
I suppose it must be the local demographics ...