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Calling experienced promoters

ianw said:
Might be useful for you to list the people who do work like that too - so bands know who to avoid.
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Oh you lead a sheltered life in indiepop heaven;)
Most of Camden operates like that.

here's an example:

"PAYMENT: All bands will be paid by the same arrangement unless decided otherwise in special circumstances. Paying customers are asked who they are coming to see on entering, money taken can then be attributed to the appropriate performers. The promoter will take the first £75.00 taken by each band to cover the cost of P.A hire, engineer, publicity and general expenses. Bands receive 60% of the remainder."

4 band bill, fiver a ticket...do the sums. And that probably isn;t one of the worst ones.
 
ianw said:
Might be useful for you to list the people who do work like that too - so bands know who to avoid.
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Well, they can avoid them if they like, but then where will they get the gigs?

Unfortunately, most of the promoters on that link are already familiar to me, and they do 'pay' bands in the way I mentioned. :( Sometimes that's simply because they can't afford to put the night on otherwise. Thanks anyway; there's one there that does band nights that we haven't contacted, so I'll look into them.

Someone else mentioned about paying promoters being of the 'we'll call you' variety, which makes sense to me. Course, how will they know to call you if they haven't heard you? :hmm:
 
twisted said:
Oh you lead a sheltered life in indiepop heaven;)
Most of Camden operates like that.

here's an example:

"PAYMENT: All bands will be paid by the same arrangement unless decided otherwise in special circumstances. Paying customers are asked who they are coming to see on entering, money taken can then be attributed to the appropriate performers. The promoter will take the first £75.00 taken by each band to cover the cost of P.A hire, engineer, publicity and general expenses. Bands receive 60% of the remainder."

4 band bill, fiver a ticket...do the sums. And that probably isn;t one of the worst ones.
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It's a fucking disgrace.
 
OK, let's see. A quick c&p of the promoters. I'll mark the ones I know definitely don't operate in the manner outlined above.

Name of night: How Does It Feel To Be Loved? - No
Name of night: Conceited Presents - No
Name of night: The Beat Hotel - No
Name of night: Lostmusic Presents - No
Name of night: The Good Ship - Venue, so different promoters will operate differently.
Name of night: Shot By Both Sides - Don't know.
Name of night: White Heat - No
Name of night: Sounds XP Presents - No
Name of night: Nashville-on-Thames - No
Name of night: PopArt - No
Name of night: Pop, Look & Listen - No
Name of night: Hooked Up - Don't know
Name of night: Cripple Creek - Don't know
Name of night: Spiral Scratch - No
Name of night: Bloomsbury Bowling Lanes - Venue, so will vary
Name of night: Pssst! - Don't know
Name of night: Offline - No


If you know that any of the don't knows work like that, please let me know.
 
scifisam said:
Someone else mentioned about paying promoters being of the 'we'll call you' variety, which makes sense to me. Course, how will they know to call you if they haven't heard you? :hmm:
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That was me and the reason why they already know who they want is that they run specialist nights of one genre or at least have a thread running through the bill that makes perfect sense. They're music fans and know what they want to put on and do the research!!!

scifisam said:
Well, they can avoid them if they like, but then where will they get the gigs?
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It's hard but I've worked with outside promoters at the venue and some of the best ones have actually been bands of a mutual spirit or genre who've got together and put on their own nights thus ensuring
1. They don;t play on a four band bill with three other bands they have nothing in common with
2. Control their own purse strings after having done a deal with the venue
3. Create a scene or at least a network and contacts for their type of music and/or mates.

Also, if I get a demo from a band and I see that they hawk themselves round the "bring 30 people or you'll never play again" venues I don't bother with them cos I know they'll prioritise those shitty gigs instead of the ones I'm offering.
Recently I got fucked over by a band I know well (and therefore thought they wouldn't pull this kind of crap) who I was trying to help out by giving them a support slot to a touring band on a high profile label (Saddle Creek). They brought no one and actually packed up their gear and left before the headliners came on. I later learned that their next gig at Dublin Castle, they made the cut and got paid.
 
twisted said:
packed up their gear and left before the headliners came on.
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Pretty poor behaviour, but I guess if you're used to playing on crappy bills thrown together by moneygrabbing promoters who don't care if the bands complement each other, then you probably think that it's not worth sticking around for the main band.
 
there is enough people out there putting on gigs the right way that it's not worth accepting a gig from bugbear etc, their nights are just depressing.
 
Some of the ones you've said don't work in the manner you mention have done so, in my experience. Perhaps it depends on the particular night they're promoting.

You sound quite angry - why?

Thanks again for the link, though.

twisted said:
That was me and the reason why they already know who they want is that they run specialist nights of one genre or at least have a thread running through the bill that makes perfect sense. They're music fans and know what they want to put on and do the research!!!
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So I guess they fnd bands by going to gigs, getting to know people and so on? Fair enough.

It's hard but I've worked with outside promoters at the venue and some of the best ones have actually been bands of a mutual spirit or genre who've got together and put on their own nights thus ensuring
1. They don;t play on a four band bill with three other bands they have nothing in common with
2. Control their own purse strings after having done a deal with the venue
3. Create a scene or at least a network and contacts for their type of music and/or mates.
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We do that sometimes too - got one coming up ths month. They do make for very good nights. Even then, though, we can't pay ourselves or the other bands very much - it just costs too much even if you get full capacity. My GF's the main one who does the network-bulding stuff - constantly out at gigs (I stay home with the child; she's the singer in the band - the GF, not the child).

Also, if I get a demo from a band and I see that they hawk themselves round the "bring 30 people or you'll never play again" venues I don't bother with them cos I know they'll prioritise those shitty gigs instead of the ones I'm offering.
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That's interesting. I can definitely see your POV there, but it is also difficult for the bands, then.

Mind you, there is great variation in the promoters who only pay after a certain number of people. We've never played for any of the 'bring 30 people' ones, because they do tend to be rip-off artists who probably won't have bothered getting a decent sound guy or PA either. However, there are quite a few 'bring ten people' types who do book bands with a similar sound, and we play for them.

Recently I got fucked over by a band I know well (and therefore thought they wouldn't pull this kind of crap) who I was trying to help out by giving them a support slot to a touring band on a high profile label (Saddle Creek). They brought no one and actually packed up their gear and left before the headliners came on. I later learned that their next gig at Dublin Castle, they made the cut and got paid.
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We've played a couple of gigs with people like that. Why book yourself in for two gigs in one night? It's bizarre. We don't usually book gigs less than 2 weeks apart, because it'll be too difficult to get people along - usually we stick one a month or every three weeks. (This month is an exception, where we're doing three gigs close to each other; one's not a normal gig, and is being done as a favour, one we agreed to do ages ago, and then the date got changed, and the other we also booked ages ago and will have to try to make the main one to get people along to. But we wouldn't do two gigs in one night!).

I've also seen a couple of bands not watch any of the other acts at all, and some leave straught after their own set. There was even one band who, after showing up very late (missing soundcheck), didn't even stay in the room while the other bands were playing - they went outside and sat in their van!
 
scifisam said:
Some of the ones you've said don't work in the manner you mention have done so, in my experience. Perhaps it depends on the particular night they're promoting.

You sound quite angry - why?
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Because the whole point of the list is to list people who don't work operate in that fashion. Which ones on the list did, in your experience?
 
scifisam said:
We've played a couple of gigs with people like that. Why book yourself in for two gigs in one night? It's bizarre. We don't usually book gigs less than 2 weeks apart, because it'll be too difficult to get people along - usually we stick one a month or every three weeks. (This month is an exception, where we're doing three gigs close to each other; one's not a normal gig, and is being done as a favour, one we agreed to do ages ago, and then the date got changed, and the other we also booked ages ago and will have to try to make the main one to get people along to. But we wouldn't do two gigs in one night!).

I've also seen a couple of bands not watch any of the other acts at all, and some leave straught after their own set. There was even one band who, after showing up very late (missing soundcheck), didn't even stay in the room while the other bands were playing - they went outside and sat in their van!
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I wasn't saying that band played two gigs in one night. It was the next time they played Dublin Castle (a few weeks later) that they made the cut on numbers whereas when they played with the signed band I put them on with they brough nada and walked out.

Some bands are just stupid cunts when it comes to getting on with other bands, especially those bands that seem to think that having a manager is supposed to impress people when they're at a level where they clearly don't need a manager - these cuckolds stand around trying to tell a highly experienced sound tech who to set up the desk, copnfront punters with a clipboard and tell promoters that the band have to put their stage time back cos the guy from Sony hasn't turned up yet.
 
twisted said:
I wasn't saying that band played two gigs in one night. It was the next time they played Dublin Castle (a few weeks later) that they made the cut on numbers whereas when they played with the signed band I put them on with they brough nada and walked out.

Some bands are just stupid cunts when it comes to getting on with other bands, especially those bands that seem to think that having a manager is supposed to impress people when they're at a level where they clearly don't need a manager - these cuckolds stand around trying to tell a highly experienced sound tech who to set up the desk, copnfront punters with a clipboard and tell promoters that the band have to put their stage time back cos the guy from Sony hasn't turned up yet.
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Oh, I see. That seems a bit strange on their behalf.

I have known bands who've booked two gigs in one night, though. I've met a couple of bands with 'managers' like that one, too; they're not usually very good bands, funnily enough.

@ian: You sounded hostile before you posted that list - you completely disbelieved me when I said that London promoters often only pay bands after the first 10 (or whatever) punters.

OK, these three are the ones I remember running nights where I've paid to get in, been asked for the name on the door and seen a tick-list (I haven't actually played for them).

Name of night: Conceited Presents - No
Name of night: Lostmusic Presents - No
Name of night: White Heat - No

But maybe it does just depend on the night.

Some of the others I just skimmed over because they're not the kind of band night promoter I'd looking for, so it's not as many as I at first thought.

@rutabowa - I should have stuck to something like that too, instead of managing to get into arguments with people :D I knew posting in this thread at all was a mistake!
 
scifisam said:
Name of night: Conceited Presents - No
Name of night: Lostmusic Presents - No
Name of night: White Heat - No
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don't think lostmusic did that at any of the gigs they've done at the Windmill or at least any night i was there as it would have been binned

some promoter did it the other night and i just took the sheet away

promoter: where has the sheet gone?
me: camden

to be fair, sometimes promoters need to do that cos of some contract with a band or agent but i think it's really offputting to punters, most of whom know that the figures will be creatively accounted anyway
 
scifisam said:
@ian: You sounded hostile before you posted that list - you completely disbelieved me when I said that London promoters often only pay bands after the first 10 (or whatever) punters.
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We were talking about the 30 deal at that point, which you said most London promoters adhere to. I simply don't believe that to be the case, that's all.
 
Trev from Lostmusic's reply:

"We've never done that. We organise cheaplists by band - so if they were on a cheaplist we would have asked which bands list they were on. We don't bean count."
 
ianw said:
Trev from Lostmusic's reply:

"We've never done that. We organise cheaplists by band - so if they were on a cheaplist we would have asked which bands list they were on. We don't bean count."
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as i said i thought that was the case - was trying to be supportive but couldn't claim to be 101%
 
ianw said:
Trev from Lostmusic's reply:

"We've never done that. We organise cheaplists by band - so if they were on a cheaplist we would have asked which bands list they were on. We don't bean count."
Click to expand...

Fair enough.

I didn't realise that the '30' number was the key thing; I thought it was about only paying bands after a certain number of people had come in and said they were with the band. That is normal practice for all the promoters we've come into contact with - not sure why we seem to have been the only bands on here who have met these promoters and not the good ones.

I apologise for not putting up a similar list of the ones who do ask you to bring a certain number of people before they pay you, but I don't know them all by name (because I don't book most of the gigs), and some of them set a low enough limit, for a small enough venue, that it's not actually unfair; if you bring lots of people, you can end up earning a decent wedge; if you don't bring many people, you don't get much money, but that's because they depend on door takings too.

Mind you, there are a few promoters who will out-and-out lie about how many people you've brought in in order to not pay you the paltry amount they were supposed to. I'll check what their actual names are (I remember the venue more than the promoter, which is different), and post them if you like.
 
Lizzie from Conceited says:

"I never ask my friends on the door to check which bands the punters are coming to see and then note it down in order to see how many people the bands bring.

We add little asterisks for every person that comes through the door simply to work out the total number of people in the venue (a bit what bouncers do) and it's possible that one of the people on the door just asked out of curiosity about bands but this is not a practice of my night."
 
scifisam said:
I didn't realise that the '30' number was the key thing; I thought it was about only paying bands after a certain number of people had come in and said they were with the band. That is normal practice for all the promoters we've come into contact with - not sure why we seem to have been the only bands on here who have met these promoters and not the good ones.
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Fair enough.

There are loads of promoters out there who don't do the 30 punters minimum thing. It's worth seeking them out.

10 payers minimum probably isn't so much of a rule as simple maths. If you've got a three band bill at a fiver in, with 30 payers, then that's £150 taken, minus (say), £100 venue hire and costs, leaves £50 left. Just over a tenner for each band. But even so, the bands should get that tenner. Not only do they have to transport gear to the venue, but pay for rehearsal time too. I think some promoters forget that.

What annoys me about the 30 punters minimum promoters is that they've block booked decent venues - Dublin Castle, Hope And Anchor - which could otherwise be used by more ethical promoters. It's one of the reasons I started up the UK promoters list - to help steer bands away from theses sharks.

If you know anyone who should be added to the list, please let me know.
 
subversplat said:
Get out of London and find a venue that will pay you to put on gigs :)

(they do exist ;))
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It's a very good point. I know people who run nights in Leeds and Manc land, and they do/can make money.

But then it's harder to get the bands. Less choice.
 
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