Call for £20 4x4 congestion charge

Discussion in 'London and the South East' started by Dan U, Jun 14, 2006.

  1. DJWrongspeed

    DJWrongspeed radio eros

    i can't see this working, i mean what about all the lorries & delivery vans, they can't be paying £25 everytime they wanna make a drop?
  2. g force

    g force Affects Shatner's Basoon

    By 'small' 4x4 do you mean these:


    Or these?


    An Impreza is pretty much an average wheel base, isn't that threatening and certianly isn't tall. There's a lot of people confusing SUVs like BMW X5s, genuine 4x4 work cars like a Landrover and other cars with 4 wheel drive.
  3. T & P

    T & P |-o-| (-o-) |-o-|

    I agree that the line becomes rather blurred with smaller 4x4s (or rather, SUVs). My main issue is with big, chunky SUVs, and to a lesser extent with smaller ones because they are still more dangerous to pedestrians and other road users than 'standard shape' cars.

    It is good that high polluting vehicles regardless of their size are being targeted. However there are a few SUVs such as the Land Rover Freelander that would escape the higher charges because their emissions are under the threshold. The Freelander is not a small vehicle by any means.
  4. Descartes

    Descartes Member

    Trolley buses

    Repeat after me, trolley buses.... the cleanest and most envoromental friendly of all the public transport vehicles but the most ignored.

    For every one vocalising their feelings about 4x4.. get real.. look at the buses and the huge amount of enzymes and pollution into the atmosphere and realsie that the policy regarding 4x4s is a political offensive against Chelsea and Kensington..

    If you really want to evaluate the good and the bad in the way of transport..... Smart car, what ever you hit, broken legs...

    The small hybrid car is dangerous, full stop, what ever you collide with you have serious injuries... and nothing to do with 4x4s..

    Fact of life. live with it, Ken does not care about you, Ken cares about income....

    The large white c in the red circle should be collect for Ken....

    Another form of stealth tax...
  5. stopurban4x4s

    stopurban4x4s New Member

    Hi Folks
    Please remember that the SMMT and pro-4x4 lobbyists are trying anyway they can to muddy the argument about 4x4s, just like Exxon Mobile has tried to muddy the facts about climate change.
    Buses, at least in London, as well as lorries and taxis, are under the scrutiny of the Mayor, and will be covered in their new exclusion zones regulations.
    The recent move towards charging according to CO2 emissions levels will capture most of the highly polluting and heavy 4x4s out there.
    Still as we all know most 4x4s present a particular threat to our communities based on their unique combination of height weight shape and emissions.
    And with the increasing sales of 4x4s, you see where our roads are heading. More and more large 4x4 vehicles. That's because the industry is agressively marketing these types of vehicles.
    So what can all of us do to turn that trend around? We have to do it, because the manufacturers won't do it, the SMMT won't do it, the countryside alliance sure won't do it, and national government won't do it.
    It's up to each of us.
  6. Giles

    Giles Well-Known Member

    Simple: If you don't want a large 4x4, don't buy one.

    That is the best thing that you can do.

    If, as you state, "we all know" that these vehicles are so intrinsically bad, then hardly anyone will buy them, and there won't be much of a problem any way, will there?

  7. editor

    editor hiraethified

    Err, doesn't help me much that, does it?

    And the notion that people won't buy them because "they know they're bad" is hardly working is it?

    After all, the cigarette industry managed to ride that particular storm for a very long time, helped by their handsome advertising budget.
  8. stopurban4x4s

    stopurban4x4s New Member

  9. Descartes

    Descartes Member

    I just love the accusation of of, ' they try and muddy the waters' when any pro 4x4 comments...

    Would someone out there in the anti 4x4 brigade actually deliver some facts....

    What model 4x4 are you complaiing about?

    Is it petrol or diesel?

    How many of the particualr model are in London?

    Of the list of cars cited by Greenpeace how many are petrol driven?
  10. editor

    editor hiraethified

    Let's make it simple.

    Do you think over-sized, needlessly large, needlessly heavy, over-engineered 4x4 vehicles are:
    (a) good for the environment?
    (b) good for urban areas?
    (c) a responsible purchase?
    (d) helping the fight against global warming?
    (e) friendly to city streets and pedestrians?
    (f) a great step forward in preference to smaller, lighter, less aggressive and less polluting city vehicles?
  11. Descartes

    Descartes Member

    Why is it that the antis cannot answer the most simple of questions?

    Answering a question with a question only undermines your position and reveals the whole thing as a charade.

    Facts guys... good hard cold facts.. not some gibberish...

    Diesel clean.. petrol dirty.... Smart car petrol diesel not available in this country... fact 4x4s diesel... cleaner.... teehee...

    What 4x4 are we talking about that is unclean? don't dodge the issue... and what number are we talking about?

    If you really want to get into the weight argument... some figures... then we will answer the question and put you right as to which vehicle causes the most damage..... that is if you can find time to supply the facts....

    The truth the whole truth and nothing b7ut the truth .. lets rock and roll guys... gimme some facts..... the the new buxz phrase for the antis... Gimme some facts....

    Is not goone be difficult to supply the facts? , Is it?
  12. T & P

    T & P |-o-| (-o-) |-o-|

    It's been done answered many times before.

    But just for you

    4x4s are more polluting

    more dangerous to other road users


    more dangerours to pedestrians

    and more dangerous to their own occupants than any other car.

    For the above reasons, and for the simple fact that 4x4s are designed to be used off road, not in congested city centres, they should not be used in urban areas.

    End of.
  13. Descartes

    Descartes Member

    Yawn... doooooozzzzzzze .. broken record job....

    Well... prove it... where is the evidence of these shocking lies...

    Which 4x4...? the Ford Sierra 4x4? ohh no.

    The freelander 4x4 oh no...

    The Suzuki 4x4 .. again a big no...

    The Fiat Punto 4x4 ... oh no...

    The original ... emission regulations...but which 4x4 fails the standards....

    You hide behind ambiguity, behind nonsense .. more dangerous to pedestrians than... lions and tigers.... more dangerous than vans, little vans, big vans, small trucks, little truck, big trucks, massive trucks, baby elephants,

    Standing in front of trains is most dangerous, the diesel engine of trains do not have an emission controls or standards... when was a train last MOTed

    What a lot of nonsense...

    what 4x4? which emission regulation apply to what 4x4?

    Stop just blathering and produce some good cold hard facts...

    4x4s are more polluting.. sez who and which 4x4? Make and model please?

    more dangerous to other road users ... Than what? , cracks in the road?

    bulkier.... Than what ?? vans, Oh no there are not.

    more dangerours to pedestrians gettng hit by any motorcar or similar is dangerous to your health and is to be avoided at all costs, do not step in front of moving vehicles. That's just logic and not to 4x4 in particular

    and more dangerous to their own occupants than any other car. LOL sez who...

    For the above reasons, and for the simple fact that 4x4s are designed to be used off road, not in congested city centres, they should not be used in urban areas. Wrong the 4x4 has the facility to travel across unpaved areas but it's prime design now, is as a normal road going vehicle. The level of equipment and suspension design allows a dual function...

    Charges agianst 4x4 are just another stealth TAX beware, Ken will collect.
  14. editor

    editor hiraethified

    Are you a bit slow or something?

    I've already explained exactly what kind of 4x4 I'm against.

    Here's a clue: it's the big over-engineered ones.

    Any chance of you answering my questions now chief?

  15. Descartes

    Descartes Member

    Next time you see one, look at the make and model.... Sighs....

    What does over engineered mean?

    Dp you have an engineering back ground?

    Answer your question, you failed to answer any of mine yet, bro.... I know you love ambiguity ... but .. lets have at least some detail...

    How many of these over-engineered things do you see a day?
  16. TonkaToy

    TonkaToy Banned Banned

    Let's make it simple?

    Great idea!

    Why can't we just tax people based on their emmisions?

    I've never felt more threatened by a 4x4 than a normal car. If someone feels that 4x4's are threatening, they must be petrified of buses and lorries.
  17. TonkaToy

    TonkaToy Banned Banned

    Over engineered is better than under-engineered don't you think?

    Let's face it. The computer you are sat in front of is most probably over engineered.
  18. editor

    editor hiraethified

    So you think the trend for larger, bigger, heavier, over engineered cars is a good thing, yes?

    And what's wrong with cars being appropriately engineered for the job?
  19. editor

    editor hiraethified

    Cycle much, do you?

    And you seem to be completely missing the point.

    Buses and lorries are big because they have to be.

    But do you think that for city streets, smaller, lighter, less polluting cars are more appropriate, or do you think that huge great over-engineered chunks of metal are better all round?
  20. Sweetpea

    Sweetpea Uncle Roger drunk

    Easy... you don't want to come across as militant, do you? ;) :D :(
  21. editor

    editor hiraethified

    Well, the case for big hunking SUVs/4x4s just defies all logic.

    The population is growing, city traffic is becoming more congested, cities are becoming more condensed, pollution is rising, global warming is happening and natural resources are fast running out.

    So some twat comes up with a resource hogging, needlessly polluting, pointlessly bulky, over-engineered road-hog, all in the name of a fucking fashion statement. And people rush out to buy them so that they can look oh-so stylish while placing their safety above that of everyone else.

    :mad: :mad: :mad:
  22. Descartes

    Descartes Member

    resource hogging, needlessly polluting, pointlessly bulky, over-engineered road-hog,

    Sounds like a Peterbuilt Truck, I haven't see one of those in this country....ever.

    You can detail all the faults but no name. or model... Hmmmmm

    Are you sure this is not some figment of your imagination?

    Just a clue to what vehicle you are refering to.

    It would appear that under close scrutiny your supposed argumrnt falls aparts and that;s why the anti 4x4 brigade talk in riddles.
  23. editor

    editor hiraethified

    You could start with this ridiculous beast:

    and then add one of these:
    and then this thing:

    And then there's this vast chunk of metal:
    which, apparently, "carries the wisdom of seven continents in its soul."

    I could go on, but I don't imagine your weird, reality-challenging bout of denial is likely to end.

    Now, will you FINALLY answer my fucking questions please?
  24. aurora green

    aurora green Tectonic

    Very reluctant to post on this thread. Just being subscibed to it is doing my head in...

    It's blatently obvious, even to a very small child, that these 4X4s are significantly bigger than 'normal' cars.
    Bigger = using more resources. Something we have a finite amount of, as do we space.

    For all small people, the hazardous act of crossing the road is made even more dangerous by these vehicles, because of their hieght. You simply cannot see over them, and it's safe to say that is true of all models.

    Personally, I feel the whole 4X4 issue is a bit of a red herring, because it's all cars that are the problem. We all urgently need to be seriously considering alternatives to the private motor car, and imagining our future cities car-free.
  25. editor

    editor hiraethified

    There's quite an irony to the fact that way back in Roman times wagons, carts and other wheeled vehicles were forced by law to only move around at night because of congestion.
  26. T & P

    T & P |-o-| (-o-) |-o-|

    I don't need to give you evidence any more that I would have to give you evidence that the Earth is round.

    Look it up yourself. Plenty to find out.

    You know you're in the wrong. You can admit it or not, I don't give much of a fuck either way.
  27. Descartes

    Descartes Member


    Four photographs only one... one.... could be remotely connected with the debate.. one Japanese registed... and the other two from US publications...

    You guys, I can understand if you have thrown your rattles out of your prams.. but please be realistic.. UK United Kingdom...

    Now, sit and read... you might just learn if you could understand... US and japanese emission regulations are different from ours.

    Emissions from state to state in the US vary...

    Emission for UK are checked yearly on the MOT test, the standards are very strict and the modern emission are miniscule... parts per million... not to be confused with American or foreign vehicles...

    Now, if yu could for one moment stop and have a reality check... the supposed 4x4 that you believe cause all the trouble.... please .. identify and publish and not all this I think therefore it is...

    If you want to get into damage to the roads.. scientific facts will reveal that you are suffering from masses of mis information... but you can't or dont want to believe anything but the supposition and bilge that wallows around...

    Picutres of vehicle in other countries do nothing to confirm their presence in London.. let alone any where else in the country...

    The numbers of vehicles, the percentage of 4x4 in the capital, repeat in the capital is very small. very very small and if you guys could just sort out some facts.... you know those things that relate to the truth, we could reach an understanding

    You give me facts because if I supply them,... you won't believe me... because you don't know the truth..

    Stop believing all that could, might, should and suppose and get into the real world...

    Just for a reality check, the £25 surcharge on a friends 4x4 was off set by the saving on the wife's Diesell BMW mini.... overall difference , a saving
    What you give with one hand is taken ( partly ) by the other.

    But, photos of vehicles with Japanese registration plates..... you cannot be serious...
  28. editor

    editor hiraethified

    Are you ever going to get your head out of your arse?

    There are plenty of over-sized 4x4s/SUVs on the streets of London. I see them every single day.

    In fact, there's a fucking ludicrous Landcruiser (or whatever the tank-like thing is called) outside my block right now.

    And I've seen most of these over-engineered blocks of metal polluting their way around the small city streets too:


    Now are you going to answer my questions or are they just too difiicult for you?

    PS Do you live in London, and if so what is your strange medical condition that blocks out all sign of these cars?
  29. editor

    editor hiraethified

    Oh, some more here too.
    ALL available in the UK:
  30. Descartes

    Descartes Member

    Don't yer just love these people...

    Yep, I live in a london suburb, commute back and forth, drive around London ..

    and would you believe, know more about the motor industry than you would believe possible.. from design, manufacture, retail units and the general mis conceptions of the general public..

    Now the vehicles you have listed are great but... you have missed the point again, either that or you are totally unaware that those vehicles come in all different engine types and sizes.... ohh drat, what a let down...

    To the casual looker they are all the same but, to the more techie guys, they are all different, in engine size and spec, interior trim and finish and just puting some photos up without models,,, that word again models does little to clarify exactly what we are debating..

    Now as far as emission go, the most determental to the enviroment is Nitrogen... and the problem is it is a constant... very little variation between the large and the small .. it's there and it is the most corrosive towards the enviroment... and when everyone jumps up and down... lets consider...

    Just pause for a moment... everyone pushes for leadfree, because of the damage to unborn, to the people and the enviroment...... now, leaded is replaced with unleaded... but and this is the silliess...... car burn more unleaded than leaded. mile per gallon, kpm .. so the dreaded nitrogen is being pumped at a greater volume by using lead free... fact of life..

    Now, large diesels,greatly reduce the nitrogen content, reduce the hydro carbon content, reduce both carbon di oxide and mon oxide... and most of those gas guzzling monster.. hey would you believe run on diesel.... more enviro friendly than those nasty unsafe city cars... .. wow....

    NOW, no one wants to upset the status quo... just sell the petrol and wait, too much diesel being used.. put the price up, .... make more money encourage people to run diesels..... WTF who cares... tell them SUVs are the monsters.. they'll believe it....

    Engine for engine, the variation between a 2 llitre car and a 2 litre SUVis negilble...... now you talk about size.. ever looked at a MPV.... thos people movers.... longer taller and .. wait a turbo diesel engine.. bigger than a lot of SUVs......

    Next time you are out in London stop and pause and count the numbers of MPV against SUVs.... the SUVs are out numbered.... but nobody cares about the people movers ...

    I have been in the traffic in Purley... Kia, Toyota, Mercedes, Renault all larger and more spacious than a lot of SUVs.......

    So, Conclusion.. the anti SUV brigade have been fooled, and that is the silly, the engines, emissions etc are little or no difference with the large saloon, petrol more corrosive, more SUV diesels, more eco friendly...

    Spacious body work, here we go, the modern construction of vehicle is to a weight, the panels are no longer steel. next time yiou pass a Renault, stop and feel the front wings.. plastic, check out... but the list goes on, the supposed heavy vehicles awell. they aren't... built to a weight to achieve good fuel consumption...

    No, weight, small cars small weight.. but that weight is concentrated on a smaller area because of the small tyres... pound per square inch is greater than a lot of much larger vehicles... larger tyre greater area, better weight distrubution.....the most damaging of aircrafts to runways .. Concorde.. because of the smaller wheels and tyres on landing.. runways had to be reinforced ... it's not the overall weight but the distrubution.. large tyres .., greater rolling diameter,

    But, hey who really cares about the truth, put out a load of disinfo and the mob will follow... but... before you get all up tight... what's one of the most valued commodities .. Petrol stop using it.. yer right..

    What we should be considering, a city with pedestrian movement without any vehicles.. moveing footwaysdriven by steam powered.. , three tier, slow, medium and fast,, step across and move along quicker...

    All the major vehicle manufacuturers are chasing electric, renewable fuels, solar power but to target SUV when larger more resorce wasteful vehicles are being presented as the panacea .. well cut my legs off and call me shorty.. it#s not real.....

    Recyclable plastic body panels with bar codes for dismantler to identify and allow reuse, well one day.... and electric wiring looms that use highly acidic materials that burn humam skin and have to be surgically cut out... Ok talk about SUVs but don't forget the rest...

    Editir, research and research and learn the truth... small is not beautiful, the materials used have a greater determental effect.. latest plastics, latest compound friction materials..


    Oh, people movers do not have to be BSI approved for collisions... safety... spheriods..

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