C4 lapdancing club investigation: Dispatches on now

[Kizmet]

Glamorise, lol, you'd not say that if you saw us all.

I used glamourise in a different context.

And if I changed the format of the all-women, no-audience dance classes to belly dancing classes would that be better, or worse, because women in harems have had a very shit time historically, pawed over, bought and sold and objectified by men ?

It would be better because there's currently no insidious media pressure also glamourising the belly dancing industry as a way for young women to make easy money.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Well, I always think there's two parts to this debate. The quality of life/level of exploitation of the dancers and the acceptance/normalisation of a sex industry with predominantly one gender (and the traditionally oppressed one) serving the other. The former can be helped with on site regulations and ensuring they are met, the latter I guess only by limiting the number of places allowed. But given the rise of mainstream soft porn and the lads mag, no doubt at least partly spurred by a feminist backlash, I'm not sure that is stoppable by simple measures any more, at least for the time being.

 

[Crispy]

Quite surprised that you think those as being insubstantial tbh. Do these kind of things not gwan in such establishments then?

Indeed, I think these are substantial issues. Everyone has the right to a certain quality of life in the workplace. Worker's rights are important.

Let's go to an extreme and work backwards. Let's imagine that in order for strip club dancers to get a job, they have to be willing to piss and shit all over each other. I think we can agree that nobody wants to do that at work? This debate just moves the line closer. If the dancers are being pressured into doing demeaning work, then they have the right - as should all workers - to demand improvements in their working conditions. In this case, that could be by better enforcement of existing regulations, or creation of new ones.

Yes, as adults, people are free to offer money for whatever they want. And people should equally have the right to refuse that offer. In a world of finite jobs, the 'just quit' option does not work. It is a fallacious argument no matter what job or worker is being discussed.

 

[Badger Kitten]

I did read them. You say that it "changes the dynamic" of high streets after dark, and you worry that girls might be pressured into simulating sex acts when they don't want to. I didn't think those could possibly be your only reasons, because they seem so insubstantial. Maybe its just me.

Single parent Natalie pretending to enjoy licking the muff of undergrad Susi;, both of them need to pay the rent, neither of them wants to do it, they signed up for just dancing and chatting up the punters for tips, but everyone does it, the club manager gets angry if you aren't working, and not many jobs will let you pull in £270 for 3 nights work that fit with mum sleeping over as the babysitter and well, what can you do, when you've paid to work there?

How 'insubstantial' of them to feel uncomfortable, they should just give it up hie down to the call centre and stop whining about being pressurised by unscrupulous clubs raking it in and taking the piss out of the licensing laws.

Women workers getting the night bus home, past crowds of revved up horny drunk men, how 'insubstantial' of them to wish there weren't 3 stripjoints in 100 yards outside the 6th form college and the coach station.

It hasn't changed the atmosphere at the bus stop, oh no.

 

[Kizmet]

Well, I always think there's two parts to this debate. The quality of life/level of exploitation of the dancers and the acceptance/normalisation of a sex industry with predominantly one gender (and the traditionally oppressed one) serving the other. The former can be helped with on site regulations and ensuring they are met, the latter I guess only by limiting the number of places allowed. But given the rise of mainstream soft porn and the lads mag, no doubt at least partly spurred by a feminist backlash, I'm not sure that that is stoppable by simple measures any more, at least for the time being.

It doesn't help if you think that the normalisation of a sex industry can only be averted by limiting the number of lapdance clubs. There's way more we can do than that.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

It doesn't help if you think that the normalisation of a sex industry can only be averted by limiting the number of lapdance clubs. There's way more we can do than that.

Which is why I said it wasn't simple. Obviously it's not all the fault of lap dancing clubs, there's a whole host of complex factors, but they are part of the issue. As the female to male sex industry becomes more and more mainstream and normalised, lap dancing clubs will become more common, which makes the industry more mainstream etc.

And as I said, for the time being, I'm not sure how the trend can be reversed, or even halted.

 

[Kizmet]

Single parent Natalie pretending to enjoy licking the muff of undergrad Susi;, both of them need to pay the rent, neither of them wants to do it, they signed up for just dancing and chatting up the punters for tips, but everyone does it, the club manager gets angry if you aren't working, and not many jobs will let you pull in £270 for 3 nights work that fit with mum sleeping over as the babysitter and well, what can you do, when you've paid to work there?.

On another thread isitme was moaning about being paid 250 for a full weeks work... I doubt he wanted to do that either.

Comparitively? Some would say that it's relatively easy money.

 

[Crispy]

Would you suck cock 3 nights a week for £270?
(assuming you don't enjoy sucking cocK)

 

[Kizmet]

Which is why I said it wasn't simple. Obviously it's not all the fault of lap dancing clubs, there's a whole host of complex factors, but they are part of the issue. As the female to male sex industry becomes more and more mainstream and normalised, lap dancing clubs will become more common, which makes the industry more mainstream etc.

And as I said, for the time being, I'm not sure how the trend can be reversed, or even halted.

People don't have to buy into it. Something gets normalised because people allow it to be. Which is.. in a way.. why I took badger kitten to task over her pole-dancing lessons for bored housewives - this is exactly the kind of thing that normalises clubs like this.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

People don't have to buy into it.

But the more it is in everyone's faces the more people do buy into it. Familiarity more often than not leads to acceptance. As a species, humans are quite easily manipulated. Look at the power of advertising.

Things that are considered OK or the norm will increasingly become the norm. Look at how attitudes change over time.

 

[Kizmet]

Would you suck cock 3 nights a week for £270?
(assuming you don't enjoy sucking cocK)

Simulated cock sucking? Depends how much I needed the cash, to be fair.

 

[Jazzz]

Single parent Natalie pretending to enjoy licking the muff of undergrad Susi;, both of them need to pay the rent... not many jobs will let you pull in £270 for 3 nights work that fit with mum sleeping over as the babysitter

So you are saying that 5 strip joints is doing a great service to single mums and struggling students financially for this town? hurrah!

I really don't doubt that some aspects of the job are unpleasant but a friend of mine recently said this to me when I started moaning about my current job.

"jazzzy, haven't you noticed yet that all jobs have vast amounts of crap in them?"

 

[Kizmet]

But the more it is in everyone's faces the more people do buy into it. Familiarity more often than not leads to acceptance. As a species, humans are quite easily manipulated. Look at the power of advertising.

Things that are considered OK or the norm will increasingly become the norm. Look at how attitudes change over time.

Did you see my edit? We allow ourselves to be easily manipulated.

Monkey see, monkey do.

 

[Crispy]

"jazzzy, haven't you noticed yet that all jobs have vast amounts of crap in them?"

Yeah, so be happy eating shit, cos there's not a damn thing you can do about it. By the way, shit quotas go up next month. Any complaints? No? Good.

 

[zenie]

People don't have to buy into it. Something gets normalised because people allow it to be. Which is.. in a way.. why I took badger kitten to task over her pole-dancing lessons for bored housewives - this is exactly the kind of thing that normalises clubs like this.

And I'm inclined to agree.

I don't really get they *why* in all of this, because the real reason behind the thread seems to be totally hypocritical

I missed the programme, were the girls who did this all willing to be doing the sex acts, or was it forced?

 

[two sheds]

I really don't doubt that some aspects of the job are unpleasant but a friend of mine recently said this to me when I started moaning about my current job.

"jazzzy, haven't you noticed yet that all jobs have vast amounts of crap in them?"

True enough, lets have them kiddies going up chimneys again what they complaining about, bloody whingers.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Did you see my edit? We allow ourselves to be easily manipulated.

Monkey see, monkey do.

That's not much of a consolation when the manipulation is of a huge proportion of society, which your individual views have little to do with.

 

[phildwyer]

Single parent Natalie pretending to enjoy licking the muff of undergrad Susi;, both of them need to pay the rent, neither of them wants to do it, they signed up for just dancing and chatting up the punters for tips, but everyone does it, the club manager gets angry if you aren't working, and not many jobs will let you pull in £270 for 3 nights work that fit with mum sleeping over as the babysitter and well, what can you do, when you've paid to work there?

I don't know, it doesn't sound like the worst job in the world. Again, maybe its just me.

 

[Badger Kitten]

On another thread isitme was moaning about being paid 250 for a full weeks work... I doubt he wanted to do that either.

Comparitively? Some would say that it's relatively easy money.

see Crispy's point about workers rights, which he makes better than me.

lapdancing is a choice.

You sign up to take your clothes off and listen to men's boring conversations whilst getting them to hand over £20 as often as possible.

Clubs in the UK are regulated and you shouldn't have to lick muff, grind cock, or shove your fingers up your own or anyone else's vagina.

The clubs could do with better regulation. It's a feebly-licenced money-grabbing free-for-all right now, clubs springing up on 'public ents' licences but regularly going way over the boundaries; not great for dancers, residents...and I've deliberately left the morality out of it. Nor gone into who I teach, when, how and why, since it isn't really anything to do with this thread. I don't actually know any 'bored housewives' or any 'housewives' for that matter, however.

 

[zenie]

I've got it on in the background, do programmes like this really help the women that suffer in all of this? Those two girls will be sacked now.

 

[Kizmet]

That's not much of a consolation when the manipulation is of a huge proportion of society, which your individual views have little to do with.

It's not meant to be a consolation. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in complaining piously about something that most people go some way toward exascerbating.

 

[Badger Kitten]

So you are saying that 5 strip joints is doing a great service to single mums and struggling students financially for this town? hurrah!

I really don't doubt that some aspects of the job are unpleasant but a friend of mine recently said this to me when I started moaning about my current job.

"jazzzy, haven't you noticed yet that all jobs have vast amounts of crap in them?"

No, the exact opposite, as you would see if you read what i actually wrote

 

[Kizmet]

see Crispy's point about workers rights, which he makes better than me.

lapdancing is a choice.

You sign up to take your clothes off and listen to men's boring conversations whilst getting them to hand over £20 as often as possible.

Clubs in the UK are regulated and you shouldn't have to lick muff, grind cock, or shove your fingers up your own or anyone else's vagina.

Unless you want to.

The clubs could do with better regulation. It's a feebly-licenced money-grabbing free-for-all right now, clubs springing up on 'public ents' licences but regularly going way over the boundaries; not great for dancers, residents...and I've deliberately left the morality out of it. Nor gone into who I teach, when, how and why, since it isn't really anything to do with this thread. I don't actually know any 'bored housewives' or any 'housewives' for that matter, however.

It is, however, relevent to your opinion.

Yes, the clubs could do with better regulation... but then again.. perhaps more importantly we could do without glamourising the whole industry so that stupid young girls don't think it's ok to take their clothes off and demand £20 from stupid men.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

It's not meant to be a consolation. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in complaining piously about something that most people go some way toward exascerbating.

Erm, why is it hypocrisy if you're not exacerbating it? And there's plenty of other people who are unhappy about the trend too. There's just enough people supporting the trend to lead to it's growth atm (leading to yet more support as people start considering it normal).

 

[Agent Sparrow]

perhaps more importantly we could do without glamourising the whole industry so that stupid young girls don't think it's ok to take their clothes off and demand £20 from stupid men.

And this is a good point.

 

[moomoo]

Sorry, I hope this doesn't sound as if I'm making light of the subject but if you were working in a lapdancing club, 3 nights a week for £270 odd - would you be able to claim tax credits?

I think I'm trying to ask whether it's actually a legit way of earning money.

 

[Kizmet]

Erm, why is it hypocrisy if you're not exacerbating it?

I don't think it is hypocrisy if you don't contribute toward noirmalising it.. it's just that most people do in some way or other.

And there's plenty of other people who are unhappy about the trend too. There's just enough people supporting the trend to lead to it's growth atm (leading to yet more support as people start considering it normal).

There aren't enough people supporting the trend.. that why prices go down and conditions get worse. It's an artificial trend created by the media, club-owners, foreign labour and silly people buying onto the whole 'pole-dancing is sexy and good for you' thing.

 

[Badger Kitten]

There is nothing prudish, moralistic, hypocritical about my position, despite fervent attemots of people to make it so when they appear not to have read what I wrote.

In an ideal world there wouldn't be a need for the clubs, but I'm being pragmatic. I do think the licences should be tougher, and if you are working at a club which has a licence based on no touching, no sex acts, no prostitution, you should be able to be confident that the terms of the licence are upheld. They are not being upheld.

This pisses off residents and makes it harder for dancers because of pressure and expectations. There are also, IMO, too many clubs in small towns on the high street raking it in and it does change the dynamic and residents aren't happy, which is also fair enough IMO.

So in the absence of a perfect world, I call for a better regulated system, because the rights of men to watch 2 girls faking pleasure by licking each other for £50 does not trump the right of dancers to just dance, no touching, no sex acts, and residents to feel comfortable walking through the town. square at night

 

[Jazzz]

Yeah, so be happy eating shit, cos there's not a damn thing you can do about it. By the way, shit quotas go up next month. Any complaints? No? Good.

Well sure there are malaises in society leading to bad working conditions - and the point is taken there. But then why for one's ire single out an industry which appears to be financial godsend for the girls concerned? Seems the wrong target IMO.

I mean, I have a part-time bar job where I might have to work until 5am. Duties include cleaning toilets, and having to kick out crazy randoms who can be quite threatening. Recently I've had no break at all in eight-hour shifts. And I'm getting close to the minimum wage for all this. I'm sure this is also the case for countless other bar staff. Luckily I am doing this actually because I enjoy it and not out of total necessity - that doesn't mean that there isn't an awful load of crap there

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

It's not meant to be a consolation. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in complaining piously about something that most people go some way toward exascerbating.

Pious? Hypocrisy? sounds like the fecking bible......