Bye Bye Scotland

[neprimerimye]

Wales is already part of the EU indirectly, the EU would be losing territory if Wales became independent and decided to remain outside it. The amount of assistance we've had coming from Europe has for the past 3 years been greater than the amount of assistance Wales gets from London. If the EU is willing to help rejuvenate Wales and London isn't, then I'd say go with the EU. We can always vote to leave, join, or determine our own relationship with Europe. As part of the UK, we are not allowed to do that.

So what you are saying is that you are opposed to Wales being fully independent but believe that Wales should form part of the EU as there are more subsidies to be got from Brussels than from London?

Pardon me for saying this but you're not really a nationalist are you? More a hunter after subsidies.

 

[lewislewis]

So what you are saying is that you are opposed to Wales being fully independent but believe that Wales should form part of the EU as there are more subsidies to be got from Brussels than from London?

Pardon me for saying this but you're not really a nationalist are you? More a hunter after subsidies.

I support Wales being fully independent and thus having the fully independent choice of whether to leave the EU or join the EU.

 

[neprimerimye]

I support Wales being fully independent and thus having the fully independent choice of whether to leave the EU or join the EU.

If you support 'Wales being fully independent' then by definition you must oppose Wales being in the EU. Membership of the EU entails the surrender of elements of sovereignity. In other words any state joining such an international body is not fully independent.

Do not mistake my meaning I'm in favour of Wales joining an international federation and surrendering sovereignty. But a European federation of Workers' States not an imperialist body such as the EU the aim of which i to further the exploitation of Europes workers and the oppression of the rest of the globe. And that is what you buy into with your pro-capitalist policy on the EU.

 

[Gavin Bl]

I'm in favour of Wales joining an international federation and surrendering sovereignty. But a European federation of Workers' States.

* decides not to hold breath *

 

[lewislewis]

I think the EU has succesfully resolved that post-Napoleonic disorder in Europe, states are generally co-operative in the EU now, and there has been beneifical legislation coming out of there for us (including workers rights laws & the social charter) that the UK govt wouldn't ever have delivered.

That said, it is a primarily unhealthy organisation. But I think Wales would be better off being a member than being not a member, and at the moment Nep, Wales can't decide what to do about it. If my choice involves surrendering sovereignty (which is becoming less relevant in the era of globalisation anyway), it's more democratic than the current arrangement.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

The Social Charter is not worth the paper it is written on. Workers in the UK work the longest hours for the worst pay in western Europe. More recent EU packages like the Euro and European Constitution contain clauses that would force signatories to implement neoliberal restructurings of their economy and open up public services/utitilities to private business hence why every major trade union oppose it.

Plaid supported both Euro and European Constitution. Fortunately in most European countries both were beaten back by mass campaigns led by Socialists, trade unions, left wing activists of the social democratic parties, the old communist parties and the greens.

 

[lewislewis]

The Social Charter is not worth the paper it is written on. Workers in the UK work the longest hours for the worst pay in western Europe. More recent EU packages like the Euro and European Constitution contain clauses that would force signatories to implement neoliberal restructurings of their economy and open up public services/utitilities to private business hence why every major trade union oppose it.

Plaid supported both Euro and European Constitution. Fortunately in most European countries both were beaten back by mass campaigns led by Socialists, trade unions, left wing activists of the social democratic parties, the old communist parties and the greens.

The Euro hasn't come up yet : s Neither did Plaid support the Euro Constitution they just said yes to a referendum.

Workers in the UK certainly do work the longest hours for the worst pay in Western Europe, and workers in Wales the longest hours for the worst pay in the UK (with the exception of Northern Ireland).
Much longer hours and less pay than say, the Republic of Ireland. Which is a member of the EU. Which even, if you wanted to go down that road, has things like the Euro but that isn't an issue yet for Wales.

Edit- and the social charter is the first international legal document that recognises the right to strike, something very helpful when myself and fellow Plaid activists were supporting the firefighters strike (I haven't visited others since then but the party does constantly, especially the local strikes nobody heards about).